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  1. #676
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    It’s called pay and living conditions.

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  3. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    It’s called pay and living conditions.
    They are talking today about a 10,000 Euro Retention Bounty to be payable in 4 tranches of 2500 per quarter to those on a 4 year engagement with 2 years in seagoing appointments. You must have 240 days seatime in the qualifying two years. The expenditure in a year is calculated at 1.2m, which means 120 will get money and the rest will be left cheering on the sidelines. There is a saying that a tide should lift all boats nor should you piss on your neighbours lawn when you get a new mower.

  4. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    They are talking today about a 10,000 Euro Retention Bounty to be payable in 4 tranches of 2500 per quarter to those on a 4 year engagement with 2 years in seagoing appointments. You must have 240 days seatime in the qualifying two years. The expenditure in a year is calculated at 1.2m, which means 120 will get money and the rest will be left cheering on the sidelines. There is a saying that a tide should lift all boats nor should you piss on your neighbours lawn when you get a new mower.
    Is it not €2,500 per year for 4 years? If so then 480 will get it, which is approximately 50% of the entire NS (apparently those with less than 3 years service are excluded).

  5. #679
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    They want to keep the experience and they want to keep ships at sea. It's a good start.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  7. #680
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ias View Post
    Is it not €2,500 per year for 4 years? If so then 480 will get it, which is approximately 50% of the entire NS (apparently those with less than 3 years service are excluded).

    Not all positions in the NS are seagoing.

    The highest ranking NCO at sea is a CPO (OR7) Besides P31 with a SCPO (OR8)

    The highest ranking officer at sea is a Cdr (OF4) on P31


    Senior NCOs
    Senior Officers
    Transport fitters
    MPs
    IT Techs
    Non Operational Personnel

    All of the above are shore based jobs which provide support for the fleet.

    The approx 201 positions outstanding are all seagoing.

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  9. #681
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    Shore based will be covered by normal national pay talks, this like un money for all the lads on the ships. It should be welcomed but the devil is in the detail.

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  11. #682
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    €2,500 bi-annually for 2 years
    240 days at sea for the 2 years at sea
    Min 3 years service completed
    Possibly aimed at just techs (hopefully not)

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/a....html?type=amp



    Edited corrected mistake
    Last edited by DeV; 18th October 2020 at 08:12.

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  13. #683
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    The details will be examined with the Rep Orgs early next week.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  15. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by ias View Post
    Is it not €2,500 per year for 4 years? If so then 480 will get it, which is approximately 50% of the entire NS (apparently those with less than 3 years service are excluded).
    In a 4 year cycle you are deemed to have 2 years at sea and two years in shore appointments. To qualify for the retention bonus you must have 240days at sea in your sea cycle. If 10,000 is paid to ONE person, in 4 x 6 monthly tranches , and the annual outlay is 1.2m then I estimate that 240 persons can receive the bonus. What I don't understand is, how is the payment cycle to apply in years 3 and 4 if half the cohort have done their seatime in year 1 and 2. At the same time those on a 3 year engagement may also have 2 qualifying years at sea and be seeking re-engagement OR is discharge automatic with no options?

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  17. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    €2,500 bi-annually for 4 years
    240 days at sea for the 2 years at sea
    Min 3 years service completed
    Possibly aimed at just techs (hopefully not)

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/a....html?type=amp
    payment provided in 4 x 6 monthly tranches of 2,500 euro i.e over 2 years.

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  19. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    In a 4 year cycle you are deemed to have 2 years at sea and two years in shore appointments. To qualify for the retention bonus you must have 240days at sea in your sea cycle. If 10,000 is paid to ONE person, in 4 x 6 monthly tranches , and the annual outlay is 1.2m then I estimate that 240 persons can receive the bonus. What I don't understand is, how is the payment cycle to apply in years 3 and 4 if half the cohort have done their seatime in year 1 and 2. At the same time those on a 3 year engagement may also have 2 qualifying years at sea and be seeking re-engagement OR is discharge automatic with no options?

    I think the plan is aimed at getting personnel to rotate back to sea earlier and/or volunteer for reliefs whilst posted ashore.

    Instead of getting 3 years seatime from a person on a 5 year contract, you may get 4 or more.

  20. #687
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    The Sec Gen must have enjoyed her first visit to Haulbowline with the Minister.
    I'm sure the sight of the majority of the fleet tied up due to crew shortages inspired her to get this moving quickly.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  22. #688
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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  24. #689
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    The rising tide MUST raise all boats. Sowing dissension reaps eventual failure.

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  26. #690
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    Again Irish Examiner 4/12/2020 a piece on Defence review 2020 high- lighting direct line from MOD/DOD to Mil units bypassing General Staff. Command really lying with the senior civil servant. Ratio of control being one CS to 23 mil pers.

  27. #691
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    tech 5 and tech 6 while nice are still not what is needed to retain folks. Unless you doubled them.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  28. #692
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Again Irish Examiner 4/12/2020 a piece on Defence review 2020 high- lighting direct line from MOD/DOD to Mil units bypassing General Staff. Command really lying with the senior civil servant. Ratio of control being one CS to 23 mil pers.
    To go back to the article, DE NCOs have been in place for a number of years now

    On the other issue, Civil Servants don’t write the legislation (but turkeys don’t vote for Christmas) politicians do.

    COS doesn’t have command (nor is the accounting officer) which is major issue.

  29. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    To go back to the article, DE NCOs have been in place for a number of years now

    On the other issue, Civil Servants don’t write the legislation (but turkeys don’t vote for Christmas) politicians do.

    COS doesn’t have command (nor is the accounting officer) which is major issue.
    Unfortunately drafting and constructing legislation is done within the Civil Service to meet in some manner the wishes and direction that the ruling pols want to go in. The drafters build in a flexibility that controls immediate cost and future spending and retain yea and nay within a CS cohort that start most things with The Minister directs, due to contingencies arising from fiscal restraint, expenditure is not contemplated in the foreseeable future. The CS wield all power.

  30. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Unfortunately drafting and constructing legislation is done within the Civil Service to meet in some manner the wishes and direction that the ruling pols want to go in. The drafters build in a flexibility that controls immediate cost and future spending and retain yea and nay within a CS cohort that start most things with The Minister directs, due to contingencies arising from fiscal restraint, expenditure is not contemplated in the foreseeable future. The CS wield all power.
    Taking our whole Defence strategy into account, and the needs of Modern Defence, particularly to know the presence of immediate and imminent incursions in peacetime, and to give a credible response to attacks in wartime , we are falling behind in all levels of required capability.
    In the period 1940- 1961 we had some semblance of a balance DF with a minimal sharp response in land , sea, and air. Since then we have continually wound down our normal conventional capabilities DF wide and not retained crucial skills or acquired modern systems such as all dimension Surveillance, missile systems for all arms, interdiction capability on sea and in the air. We are back in the era of trench warfare and line of sight observation on land, no observation seawards or in the air, no AA Defence, no ASW, and No MCM. Unfortunately with the loss of skills we have also shed the training capability that went with them, leaving us with a SKILLS shortfall.

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  32. #695
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Again Irish Examiner 4/12/2020 a piece on Defence review 2020 high- lighting direct line from MOD/DOD to Mil units bypassing General Staff. Command really lying with the senior civil servant. Ratio of control being one CS to 23 mil pers.
    Another piece today by Secretary of RACO on the Commission on Defence. Interesting read pointing out today's marching in State at 8100-tragic,tragic!! Surely somebody must be steering the ship to navigate our way out of this un-necessary mess. Money has to be provided and future budgets must NOT be provisional, returnable, or unspent.

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  34. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Another piece today by Secretary of RACO on the Commission on Defence. Interesting read pointing out today's marching in State at 8100-tragic,tragic!! Surely somebody must be steering the ship to navigate our way out of this un-necessary mess. Money has to be provided and future budgets must NOT be provisional, returnable, or unspent.
    In today's Sunday Independent much about the war against Coronavirus. The headlines read "It is like going to War without the Proper Weapons". How apt and how descriptive .

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  36. #697
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    Pages 44 - 47

    A human slant on the current state of play in the Permanent Defence Force

    https://en.calameo.com/read/006194269e5450792534b
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  38. #698
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Pages 44 - 47

    A human slant on the current state of play in the Permanent Defence Force

    https://en.calameo.com/read/006194269e5450792534b
    And an interesting piece on Mali in there too.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

  39. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    And an interesting piece on Mali in there too.
    It seems to me that obvious problems within the PDF and RDF were triggered by a train of fiscal measures implemented by Central Government not least reduction in strengths, barrack closures, facility closures, capability reductions and formation deletions. It seems that the Cure to this self-inflicted wound wiill be left to the Commission on Defence. it will be difficult, although classed as Independent, they are however selected and are made up of 15 members some retired, some ex-military.
    Other than the retired ranked 5 members,( Norwegian Admiral. Finnish general, ex-Irish Chief of Staff, Irish Lt.Col.,and an ex- Army Doctor) the remaining 10 are Ex-Civil servants or heads of University or security agencies with a 60% Female and 40% Male gender balance. Coming up with decisions to produce a balanced fighting machine, adequately paid, housed, and equipped is going to be interesting. We must take into account that Northern European countries rely heavily on Reserve Forces as in the case of Norway they have about 20,000 regulars and 40,000 reservists. The Finns on the other hand are heavily into conscripts using a standing Force of 8000 and 23,000 conscripts with 30,000 males, and 32,000 Females being available for conscription annually. It is obvious both countries can house and equip their Force model.

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  41. #700
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    Is it fair to say the problems started when we went from 3 brigades to 2? At least with 3 brigades, the under-strength units weren't expected to traverse half the country for duties. Now everyone is expected to be 3 places at once, and that is without the ATCP commitment we had 10/15 years ago.
    Then, with the army having a much smaller public profile, the smaller arms, the Navy And Air Corps, have zero public profile to attract potential recruits?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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