manning levels, the future.

[DeV]

Is it fair to say the problems started when we went from 3 brigades to 2? At least with 3 brigades, the under-strength units weren't expected to traverse half the country for duties. Now everyone is expected to be 3 places at once, and that is without the ATCP commitment we had 10/15 years ago.
Then, with the army having a much smaller public profile, the smaller arms, the Navy And Air Corps, have zero public profile to attract potential recruits?

Establishment was pre-last reorg 10,500 for 3 Bde DF. The Recession and ECF brought the strength down to approx 9,500 personnel.

Establishment is currently 9,500 for the 2 Bde DF. Now of course a Bde is supposed to be a lot more than 1,000 personnel.

As at 30 September 2020, the strength was 8,529. That to me is the more pressing issue, we could make the establishment 100,000 but if the strength remains as is there is no point.

Of course, the low strength means that a lot of personnel and resources are constantly having to be dedicated to training inductees, career courses, specialist courses.... just to replace those leaving.

Looking at the ODF, climate survey and PSPC reports, IMHO, In many cases it is middle & front line management (Comdt, Capt, Sgt, Cpl) and specialist/tech where the gaps are most felt.

[na grohmiti]

Establishment was pre-last reorg 10,500 for 3 Bde DF. The Recession and ECF brought the strength down to approx 9,500 personnel.

Establishment is currently 9,500 for the 2 Bde DF. Now of course a Bde is supposed to be a lot more than 1,000 personnel.

As at 30 September 2020, the strength was 8,529. That to me is the more pressing issue, we could make the establishment 100,000 but if the strength remains as is there is no point.

Of course, the low strength means that a lot of personnel and resources are constantly having to be dedicated to training inductees, career courses, specialist courses.... just to replace those leaving.

Looking at the ODF, climate survey and PSPC reports, IMHO, In many cases it is middle & front line management (Comdt, Capt, Sgt, Cpl) and specialist/tech where the gaps are most felt.

9500 for a 2 brigade Army, Air Corps and Naval service you mean. With a NS establishment that remained unchanged in spite of the fleet being increased from 7 to 9 ships? You MUST increase the establishment in these circumstances. Impossible to fill vacancies that exist on the ground when the vacancies don't exist on paper. An added complexity also, flagged 2 decades ago but never addressed properly in the DF, what do you do when someone goes on Maternity? Who fills their appointment for the duration of the leave?

[DeV]

9500 for a 2 brigade Army, Air Corps and Naval service you mean. With a NS establishment that remained unchanged in spite of the fleet being increased from 7 to 9 ships? You MUST increase the establishment in these circumstances. Impossible to fill vacancies that exist on the ground when the vacancies don't exist on paper. An added complexity also, flagged 2 decades ago but never addressed properly in the DF, what do you do when someone goes on Maternity? Who fills their appointment for the duration of the leave?

True enough

And an AC that now has an additional standing task of EAS daylight/7

Plus normal barrack guards which sometimes sees students on arduous courses detailed

[ancientmariner]

9500 for a 2 brigade Army, Air Corps and Naval service you mean. With a NS establishment that remained unchanged in spite of the fleet being increased from 7 to 9 ships? You MUST increase the establishment in these circumstances. Impossible to fill vacancies that exist on the ground when the vacancies don't exist on paper. An added complexity also, flagged 2 decades ago but never addressed properly in the DF, what do you do when someone goes on Maternity? Who fills their appointment for the duration of the leave?

Leaving the Naval Service and Aer Corps to one side, the strength of 2 Bdes would be, normally, in the region 9000 personnel plus elements for reserve. If we trim it back to 4 Bns and supports you could have slimmed down Bdes of 3000 each including supports and reserves. It is a big ask to roll out two Bdes of fighting personnel from a usable pool of about 6000 all ranks excluding Navy and Aer Corps.

[Flamingo]

Any point in looking at one (fully equipped, manned and supported) brigade? Put the rest of the manpower into the NS and AC?

I’m just curious why not, and wait to be enlightened why it’s a bad idea...

[DeV]

Any point in looking at one (fully equipped, manned and supported) brigade? Put the rest of the manpower into the NS and AC?

I’m just curious why not, and wait to be enlightened why it’s a bad idea...

Wouldn’t be enough manpower to cover the tasks it is assigned.

[ancientmariner]

Wouldn’t be enough manpower to cover the tasks it is assigned.

The Brits have just appointed their first GOC female 2 star equivalent general, to command a unit described as RECRUITING and ARMY Initial TRAINING COMMAND. This is definitely putting leadership where it is needed.

[na grohmiti]

The Brits have just appointed their first GOC female 2 star equivalent general, to command a unit described as RECRUITING and ARMY Initial TRAINING COMMAND. This is definitely putting leadership where it is needed.

Yeah, the DoD created a new Assistant Principal post in their office to do the same thing. How's that working out?
It makes so much sense to coordinate recruitment and training into one command structure. I know some years back there was an attempt to create a Captain (NS) appointment over the Naval College(including NMCI) similar to the OC Military College, but doing so would have meant the loss of a Colonel somewhere else. Internationally most holding a similar position would be R/Adm at least.

[ancientmariner]

Yeah, the DoD created a new Assistant Principal post in their office to do the same thing. How's that working out?
It makes so much sense to coordinate recruitment and training into one command structure. I know some years back there was an attempt to create a Captain (NS) appointment over the Naval College(including NMCI) similar to the OC Military College, but doing so would have meant the loss of a Colonel somewhere else. Internationally most holding a similar position would be R/Adm at least.

Some of us were involved in designing the necessary establishments for an expanding navy. We produced figures for Naval HQ, Naval Base, Naval Dockyard, Naval Depot, Naval school, Naval Transport both Road and afloat, each ship by Name, and an element called Sea Going replacements. The request was for two crews for each ship with automatic addition or subtraction of crews for when new ships were added on OR old ships deleted. Some say it was reduced to 1.5 crews per ships but also crewing for later ships were inadequately provided for. Ranks across the board were upgraded with 2 CDrs for the Flagship,1 Cdr for the Naval Depot, Capt NS for the Base, Capt . NS for the Dockyard, Flag Rank for FOCNS, and extra WO grades and so on. The School Commandant should be upgraded with key instructors provided for at WO, CPO, PO, and L/S levels to be augmented as classes are added. Permanent training NCO's are necessary to mentor and oversee temporary instructors, and provide for uniformity of training standards.

[Fantasia]

Fluctuating establishments is not going to happen. DOD want to sign off on a number today and not revisit that number til they decide to cut it.

Internal shuffling without changes to the overall numbers should be within the remit of the COS, CS4 being their document afterall but even that requires approval of the DOD these days.

Some would argue that the DOD has gained a lot more power since a formed DCOS (Sp), who has since been promoted, adopted a policy of "being seen to lean in" and ending up getting shafted.

[DeV]

Fluctuating establishments is not going to happen. DOD want to sign off on a number today and not revisit that number til they decide to cut it.

Internal shuffling without changes to the overall numbers should be within the remit of the COS, CS4 being their document afterall but even that requires approval of the DOD these days.

Some would argue that the DOD has gained a lot more power since a formed DCOS (Sp), who has since been promoted, adopted a policy of "being seen to lean in" and ending up getting shafted.

The overall ranks and services being in CS4 but isn’t the detail of what rank is in what appointment in Admin Inst CS4 ?

So couldn’t DCOS move them that way?

You mean to get the new ships?

[ancientmariner]

The overall ranks and services being in CS4 but isn’t the detail of what rank is in what appointment in Admin Inst CS4 ?

So couldn’t DCOS move them that way?

You mean to get the new ships?

Indeed CS.4 has/had strength tables for each ship type and also a table for SGR's by rank and appointment. The General Staff Officer so impowered had some flexibility in appointing Senior Officers to vacancies under his control. He could appoint a full Naval Captain in Haulbowline against a vacancy in Donegal or Brussels for a Colonel.
Whether a DCOS or COS tries to "Lean in" or cooperate with DOD, the latter must be made aware that they are also responsible for the Mission of the PDF and it's manpower. Ultimately pruning the tree of all it's new growth will leave you with a dry stick. In a way the Department is most responsible for all of the shortfall in capabilities and MUST be told so.

[ancientmariner]

Indeed CS.4 has/had strength tables for each ship type and also a table for SGR's by rank and appointment. The General Staff Officer so impowered had some flexibility in appointing Senior Officers to vacancies under his control. He could appoint a full Naval Captain in Haulbowline against a vacancy in Donegal or Brussels for a Colonel.
Whether a DCOS or COS tries to "Lean in" or cooperate with DOD, the latter must be made aware that they are also responsible for the Mission of the PDF and it's manpower. Ultimately pruning the tree of all it's new growth will leave you with a dry stick. In a way the Department is most responsible for all of the shortfall in capabilities and MUST be told so.

If I could highlight another endemic problem ,militating against properly and timely equipping of units, and that is " Case Making". When building a new ship all Dockyard installed items and equipment needed to comply with International and domestic rules go into the ship without question. However GFE's (Government Furnished Equipment) is a different matter with a suppressive case-making exercise resulting in a minimalised outfit. I remember being told that we couldn't have a gun because the EU wouldn't pay for it and we wound up with old Bofors and a couple of 20mm guns during the first EU funded OPV packages. It is that huckster approach that is continuing to weaken our PDF.

[na grohmiti]

Not much has changed. The P50s arrived without armament, 2nd hand 76mm were delivered shortly after. They were in service for many years before the 20mm was added.(Again, 2nd hand).
From Staffing, to equipment, the NS, and the DF is expected to do 110% of the job with one hand tied behind its back.

[ancientmariner]

Wouldn’t be enough manpower to cover the tasks it is assigned.

Just wondering, with the requirement to keep ships crews COVID-VIRUS free and reducing outside contacts when on patrol, how do boarding operations work.?

[Auldsod]

Just wondering, with the requirement to keep ships crews COVID-VIRUS free and reducing outside contacts when on patrol, how do boarding operations work.?

The use of PPE, social distancing and rigourous cleaning.

[Fantasia]

Just wondering, with the requirement to keep ships crews COVID-VIRUS free and reducing outside contacts when on patrol, how do boarding operations work.?

There would be OPSEC issues if anyone was to release that type of info

[ancientmariner]

There would be OPSEC issues if anyone was to release that type of info

Exactly but somebody released most of that kind of info in Yesterdays Irish Examiner. While today's released further data on recruit training and a full scale picture of Haulbowline on the opening of PARC AINEASA INISH SIONNACH. It seems D'OYLY CARTE OPERA company is running Defence security and NOT Defence Act 1954 as amended March 2020 section 34 and sections 276 onwards refer on use of lands etc.

[na grohmiti]

https://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-40001005.html

(if anyone has access to the full version, could they post it in the "News" section?)

The Saturday Read: ‘Those figures were not sustainable’ – Private sector ‘bounty’ tempting talent away from Defence Forces

The Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces has pledged that his top target this year is to ensure the turnover rate of military personnel is reduced by a third.

Vice Admiral Mark Mellett says the “churn” rate must be arrested by holding on to the good calibre of personnel already in the military while at the same time bringing in new entrants and fresh blood, which is healthy for any organisation.

This means reversing the retention crises that have confronted the Defence Forces over the last few years, resulting in the overall strength of the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps falling almost a thousand below the establishment figure of 9,500 to 8,573 today.

[na grohmiti]

https://irishlights.ie/who-we-are/va...ectrical).aspx

Another job more or less directed towards NS elecs. Starting at €31000 p/a rising to €38000, plus time and a half leave for every day worked at sea, plus coastal allowance of 21% of daily rate, plus pension, flexi leave for weekends worked, sick pay... etc.

[DeV]

Extend the seafarers tax credit to the NS

[Truck Driver]

Extend the seafarers tax credit to the NS

How much is it worth, Dev?

[Auldsod]

Extend the seafarers tax credit to the NS

The NS is already entitled to the 'Sea-going Naval Personnel Tax Credit' of 1,500 (1,270 for 2020). 80 sea days are required which is a much lower threshold than for the seafarers allowance.

The seafarers ALLOWANCE has far higher barriers of entry to receive and requires 161 sea days per year. Allowance is 6,350 so would result in a credit of 2,540 at 40% tax.

So if the seafarers allowance was extended to the NS, it would be worth 1000 more to those receiving but less in the service would be eligible to claim.

Best option is to increase the Sea-going Naval Personnel Tax Credit instead of extending access to the other.

[na grohmiti]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40225262.html

New allowance not working it seems. I hear it's not keeping the techs. Soon a PO/RRT will be as scarce as a WO/Admin.

[DeV]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40225262.html

New allowance not working it seems. I hear it's not keeping the techs. Soon a PO/RRT will be as scarce as a WO/Admin.

How many entitled to apply?
Min 3 years service required and not all ranks can go to sea either