Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

manning levels, the future.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
    They're not. Currently the only way for enlisted personnel to qualify for Tech 5/6 pay is to go through the CIS trainee technician scheme. A scheme which is unfit for purpose given the modern needs of the DF.
    In a historic sense there was always a tendency for those involved in equipping the PDF with a skills base to offload structures and systems in favour of a ready made solution from civilian 3rd Level Insts. or Universities. The major loss was that inducted personnel had a civilian ethos which by and large wasn't replaced in a deep militarising training programme. We got rid of the Apprentice School and didn't sustain or modernise front edge capabilities in any of the support services such as Aer Corps and Naval Service. We are now confronted by the cyber world and world contagion, and in the latter matter prepared for the eventuality by closing down medical facilities and a coherent staff. What we do and what we've always done is based on the theory that " there will be no fire tonight".

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dogwatch View Post
      All well and good to do that, but that does not resolve the current key issue that the government are NOT remunerating DF personnel at a rate commensurate with their skillset and experience and with regard to their separation. If the leaks are to be believed, AC pilots will get allowances (Air Component operations supported), overseas allowance increased (land component supported) and PDA brought up a meager €5 .... Maritime Component supported?
      Sea going has to be incentivised.
      No point looking ahead 20 years while we wither on the vine.
      Anyone know what became of Dogwatch? No sign of him since last December.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

      Comment


      • Seems that Coveney might actually be interested in trying to find ways to fix the crisis:

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
          Seems that Coveney might actually be interested in trying to find ways to fix the crisis:
          https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40017806.html
          Too late for recruitment, retention is now the issue.
          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

          Comment


          • Great (or not) to see he has said there is no time to wait for the special report in 2 years time, as laid down in the program for government.
            Hopefully the downturn in the cruise industry will see a return of the many Irish crew, highly qualified and experienced, but used to being treated like slaves. A well worded DE competition could lure them to the NS to fill vital roles at sea.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

            Comment


            • It will take much more than a global recession to solve the issue of recruitment and retention in the Naval Service. As it stands the system is fundamentally broken and it will take much more than the current economic situation to save it. The requirement for an 8-ship NS, as per the first White Paper is 1144 personnel, reduced to 1094 in 2010, the point where many of the current issues emerge. The requirement for a 9-ship NS is approx. 1200 personnel. It is currently 887 (31 May 20) and falling (45 awaiting discharge). At current NS College capacity 96 recruits per annum can be passed out without derailing all other courses, so a minimum of 3.5 years to close the gap between 887 and 1200, not including training losses, retirements on age grounds etc. So realistically it would take the guts of a decade to solve the NS personnel issue.
              Last edited by Egbeygia; 18 July 2020, 19:46.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                Too late for recruitment, retention is now the issue.
                Yes and no
                Retention has lead to ships being tied up but without recruitment (be it DE or otherwise) those ships will stay tied up


                Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                Great (or not) to see he has said there is no time to wait for the special report in 2 years time, as laid down in the program for government.
                Hopefully the downturn in the cruise industry will see a return of the many Irish crew, highly qualified and experienced, but used to being treated like slaves. A well worded DE competition could lure them to the NS to fill vital roles at sea.
                Sure there is currently open DE competitions for:
                A/Chef
                L/RRT
                L/HA
                L/EA
                L/ERA
                DE officer - Bridge Watchkeeper Officer
                DE officer - Marine Engineering Officer
                DE officer - electrical engineering officer

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  Yes and no
                  Retention has lead to ships being tied up but without recruitment (be it DE or otherwise) those ships will stay tied up




                  Sure there is currently open DE competitions for:
                  A/Chef
                  L/RRT
                  L/HA
                  L/EA
                  L/ERA
                  DE officer - Bridge Watchkeeper Officer
                  DE officer - Marine Engineering Officer
                  DE officer - electrical engineering officer
                  What is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. We got some fine techs for all branches in days of yore. Many went on to Lt.Cdr rank. When the Apprentice School was shut where did techs come from then. Is there still a School of catering? DE was usually an emergency measure and it requires a serious New Entry training program of at least 9 weeks.

                  Comment


                  • Yes and no
                    Retention has lead to ships being tied up but without recruitment (be it DE or otherwise) those ships will stay tied up
                    Experience lost means what ever input at what ever level there will never be enough people to run the courses get the people where you need them to be....3.5 years to fill the gap between 880 and 1200, which menas the first guys in the door will be within insight of the finishing line before the last batch get of their marks. If you can't retain 50% of each intake beyond their initial contract its a decreasing circle.

                    People in at DE levels, they still have to go through training to get them to speed and then put them to sea in an understudy capacity where they will be crucified due shortages. Given they are already qualified coming through the door. Buy out option will be cheap so unless you can pay them , make their conditions acceptable,they'll walk

                    Retention at all levels is the key.
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                      What is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. We got some fine techs for all branches in days of yore. Many went on to Lt.Cdr rank. When the Apprentice School was shut where did techs come from then. Is there still a School of catering? DE was usually an emergency measure and it requires a serious New Entry training program of at least 9 weeks.
                      The school of buns is still on the go up in mckee but they are very limited in how many they can teach on a given year it seems - classroom size being the issue according to those in the know.

                      A recent course in the past few years had nearly 2/3 of places allocated to the NS, whilst one of the brigdes got a single spot. DF has aligned itself to QQI as regards standards in catering so off the top of my head, the basic course is a fair bit longer than 9 weeks.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                        What is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. We got some fine techs for all branches in days of yore. Many went on to Lt.Cdr rank. When the Apprentice School was shut where did techs come from then. Is there still a School of catering? DE was usually an emergency measure and it requires a serious New Entry training program of at least 9 weeks.
                        Apprentices are no longer directly recruited but enlisted may apply to be trained as technicians in a number of specific fields. Block release still done in civvy schools. The Air Corps does recruit apprentices directly but unlike the old days they complete 7 months military training before picking up the books.
                        Interestingly, and I am open to correction, I understand the NS is to phase out EAs to be replaced by electrical engineers. Now it used to be that engineers were officers and artificers were junior and senior ratings. Will what was the EA now become another engineering officer?
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                          What is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. ....
                          As previously mentioned, with AAS gone, Apprentices are not inducted straight from civvy street anymore
                          Rather, existing members of the PDF can apply for a slot on the TTS (Technician Training Scheme)
                          That's how it's done now
                          "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                            What is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. We got some fine techs for all branches in days of yore. Many went on to Lt.Cdr rank. When the Apprentice School was shut where did techs come from then. Is there still a School of catering? DE was usually an emergency measure and it requires a serious New Entry training program of at least 9 weeks.
                            As others have said. The on the job is normally in a unit or workshops (depending on the TTS can include working for civvies). A substantial amount of the academic phases are in civvy colleges (in conjunction with the relevant corps school depending on the TTS)

                            Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                            Experience lost means what ever input at what ever level there will never be enough people to run the courses get the people where you need them to be....3.5 years to fill the gap between 880 and 1200, which menas the first guys in the door will be within insight of the finishing line before the last batch get of their marks. If you can't retain 50% of each intake beyond their initial contract its a decreasing circle.

                            People in at DE levels, they still have to go through training to get them to speed and then put them to sea in an understudy capacity where they will be crucified due shortages. Given they are already qualified coming through the door. Buy out option will be cheap so unless you can pay them , make their conditions acceptable,they'll walk

                            Retention at all levels is the key.
                            Absolutely. Retention is critical but recruitment is also key

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
                              As previously mentioned, with AAS gone, Apprentices are not inducted straight from civvy street anymore
                              Rather, existing members of the PDF can apply for a slot on the TTS (Technician Training Scheme)
                              That's how it's done now
                              The whole self integrity of the PDF has been weakened. If they are in competition with the factory gate or immigration then their attempt to have sufficient personal for all purposes, including selection for a TTS is weakened. The candidates on TTS are not being trained rather they are getting a civilian Tech education and ethical outlook.
                              The AAS turned out Military Techs for all trades with an establishment in situ to train them. They arrived at their units as trained service personnel as well as being EA, ERA, RRM etc.
                              A Naval Electrical officer is usually a degree holder. There is little reason why a current EA, or RRM ,couldn't do an Electronics degree. However every ship needs its hands on EA, RRM, ERA. The Electrical officer spans the whole ship and the integrity of systems for all users of electrical power and distribution, EA's, ERA's and RRM's , keep the bits running.
                              Last edited by ancientmariner; 19 July 2020, 10:37.

                              Comment


                              • T
                                here is little reason why a current EA, or RRM ,couldn't do an Electronics degree
                                More often than not when they do, they are then offered commissions and taken out of the line in the actual repair and running of systems and transferred to management ,which has its merits from a personal development and has pros and cons to the service.
                                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X