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  1. #626
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I think we have become too focused on age profiles when it comes to recruiting technicians, whether as recruits or DEs.
    For example, my neighbour returned from the US some years back, qualified as a motorcycle mechanic, unfortunately his US skills are not recognised here. So he, at 38, got started as an apprentice maintenance fitter at a nearby pharma. The DF would consider him too old. Big Pharma are delighted to have his mechanical skills to use in their facility, and will bear the cost of retraining him specific to their needs.
    The RN has a similar scheme where those who may have had a trade in the past, are recruited at senior rates, and retrained to a Naval specific trade. I know of one former plumber who entered RN after training as a PO Weapons technician.
    Increase the bottom line and you will attract and retain the right people.
    But will not place the same physical or mental demands on him that the DF will/could

  2. #627
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Sadly the private sector pay isn't as transparent as the public sector. Private sector unions jumping up and down when public sector entry level grades get raises that bring them within reach of the average industrial wage, ignoring that the PS worker has no opportunity for overtime or shift premium, and they will only see that money after 15 years at grade....and promotion will only see them earn an extra €50 per week...
    I think you have an over inflated view of what the private sector gets BUT that is a topic for another thread.

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  4. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    I think you have an over inflated view of what the private sector gets BUT that is a topic for another thread.
    Perhaps so. The mantra from Employer bodies is that the Public Service is payed too much , because their certainty of employment merits lesser rates of pay. However in our case most of us have had no increase other than adjustments caused by promotion or scale changes.
    In most Services voluntary retirements are subject to a quota depending on skill sets and they in turn need months of notice. Example 3 CERA want to go but the quota for 2020 is used up, two may leave next year in June and the third must wait until 2022.

  5. #629
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    I think you have an over inflated view of what the private sector gets BUT that is a topic for another thread.
    I was thinking the same thing. The average industrial wage is a very misleading statistic.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/opi...62071-Apr2019/

    Take the below as an example. Most workers earn quite a bit below it but because it's a simple average, those earning very high salaries push it way up.

    I'm sure a lot of people have left the PS and were shocked to discover that not all jobs attract over 50k.

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  7. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    I was thinking the same thing. The average industrial wage is a very misleading statistic.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/opi...62071-Apr2019/

    Take the below as an example. Most workers earn quite a bit below it but because it's a simple average, those earning very high salaries push it way up.

    I'm sure a lot of people have left the PS and were shocked to discover that not all jobs attract over 50k.
    Reluctant to get drawn further off topic, but the average PS worker wage is very misleading, as it includes the earnings of the Taoiseach.
    Nobody really leaves the PS....
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  9. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Reluctant to get drawn further off topic, but the average PS worker wage is very misleading, as it includes the earnings of the Taoiseach.
    Nobody really leaves the PS....
    I agree. Better off not going doing the rabbit hole of that topic. Leave it to boards.ie or politics.ie!

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  11. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    I agree. Better off not going doing the rabbit hole of that topic. Leave it to boards.ie or politics.ie!
    There seems to be some confusion on Strengths in the PDF. If you look at External info on Strengths they estimate the figures as 7340 permanent and 1840 reservists yet the Media are told the Strength is 9000+. Has the proposed Commission on Defence being appointed and who are the external members. Will they be asking for Public views. The similar sized unaligned countries tend to use conscription and most have strong Defence Industries. Critical part of any Defence concept is a certain amount of mutuality , common structures , equipment, and training. Our Commission looks shaky from the start in that all proposals will have to meet a "Green " set of requirements. Enough preconditions leads to a lot of reading materials and confusion. Then the Pay "Review" is not taking place until after the Commission reports.
    The real initial question is agreeing we need a PDF and how big it should be in an All Arms sense taking into account an Island Country. Then pin down a percentage of GDP to maintain the agreed PDF.
    I note no matter how bad things are at home , overseas missions continue with enthusiasm. The NS should likewise, do everything possible to, keep ships at sea.

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  13. #633
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    There seems to be some confusion on Strengths in the PDF. If you look at External info on Strengths they estimate the figures as 7340 permanent and 1840 reservists yet the Media are told the Strength is 9000+.
    establishment is 9000 plus

    Has the proposed Commission on Defence being appointed and who are the external members. Will they be asking for Public views.
    No, unknown
    One would assume so

    Our Commission looks shaky from the start in that all proposals will have to meet a "Green " set of requirements
    I would have agreed until I realised we deployed on the EU Chad mission during Green times. I think EU wide, the Greens have moved away from some of their traditional Defence policy

    I note no matter how bad things are at home , overseas missions continue with enthusiasm. The NS should likewise, do everything possible to, keep ships at sea.
    The DF have done the right thing and realised that when they say sorry we can’t people take notice

  14. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The real initial question is agreeing we need a PDF and how big it should be in an All Arms sense taking into account an Island Country. Then pin down a percentage of GDP to maintain the agreed PDF.
    IMHO we should steer away from the % GDP and instead once we have agreed that we need a DF and that we are prepared to pay for it that the value be set as a % of total government spending. At present 1.3% of government spending in on defence, the average in the EU is 3.8% and is projected to rise to more than 4.8%. To make things easy our long term target should be 5% of government spending.
    Last edited by EUFighter; 20th September 2020 at 15:33.

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  16. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    IMHO we should steer away from the % GDP and instead once we have agreed that we need a DF and that we are prepared to pay for it that the value be set as a % of total government spending. At present 1.3% of government spending in on defence, the average in the EU is 3.8% and is projected to rise to more than 4.8%. To make things easy our long term target should be 5% of government spending.
    The perennial difficulty with Defence Budgets and Defence spending is that they are rarely fully spent. In fact getting towards a major ordering of maintenance stores a decision came down to cut all spending by 20%, coupled with suspension of recruitment. In a couple of decades of Defence spending Budgets have varied between 250,000,000 and 1.2 billion. The only consistent portion has been provision for Pay and pensions while capital spending is seasonal and dependent on political good will.

    Over time the PDF, inclusive of all branches, has been redesigned to fit CS view of Defence. Perhaps we need to consider a Defence Tax to buy Boats, planes, and tanks.

  17. #636
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    Don't call it that in case you draw the ire of AFRI or the Iona insttute.
    The DF budget just needs to be ringfenced, so it is not the scrapings from the bowl. Hopefully, the discussion coming out is the importance of Defence Spending, and defence as an insurance policy, that must be paid, regardless of other economic circumstances.
    It would be great if DF pay was taken from the defence vote and put into DPER. It gives the outsider an inaccurate view of what Ireland actually spends on Defence.
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  18. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The perennial difficulty with Defence Budgets and Defence spending is that they are rarely fully spent. In fact getting towards a major ordering of maintenance stores a decision came down to cut all spending by 20%, coupled with suspension of recruitment. In a couple of decades of Defence spending Budgets have varied between 250,000,000 and 1.2 billion. The only consistent portion has been provision for Pay and pensions while capital spending is seasonal and dependent on political good will.

    Over time the PDF, inclusive of all branches, has been redesigned to fit CS view of Defence. Perhaps we need to consider a Defence Tax to buy Boats, planes, and tanks.
    You've got it in one there. There is no political will because there is no public interest for defence. It's seen by all and sundry as being a waste of money better spend on schools and hospitals and that the only defence policy we need is indefinite neutrality because we are privileged to live in a safe part of the world and nothing bad can or will ever happen us (in the public view). Unless there is a serious detonation in the global security situation, I can never see any large scale increase in capital spending that results in us getting new ships, aircraft or tanks (why do we need tanks anyway?). Any investment in defence will always be in pay and pensions unless something drastic changes external to our political system. I'd love to see what the public would think of a defence tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Don't call it that in case you draw the ire of AFRI or the Iona insttute.
    The DF budget just needs to be ringfenced, so it is not the scrapings from the bowl. Hopefully, the discussion coming out is the importance of Defence Spending, and defence as an insurance policy, that must be paid, regardless of other economic circumstances.
    It would be great if DF pay was taken from the defence vote and put into DPER. It gives the outsider an inaccurate view of what Ireland actually spends on Defence.
    Most western militaries include pay and pensions in their defence budgets. It's the largest line item. Ok, maybe it may not make up the same proportion of the defence budget as it does for us but it's always significant.

    If we see transport aircraft, a more capable navy and a revitalised reserve in my time, I'll be happy with that.
    Last edited by Auldsod; 20th September 2020 at 21:49.

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  20. #638
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    It would be great if DF pay was taken from the defence vote and put into DPER. It gives the outsider an inaccurate view of what Ireland actually spends on Defence.
    Why would it be when all Departments pay is called out in the Estimates under the appropriate vote?

    What we really need is “Army Pensions” taken out of the “Defence Group”!
    Why call it out separately when Gardai for example aren’t

  21. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    What we really need is “Army Pensions” taken out of the “Defence Group”!
    Why call it out separately when Gardai for example aren’t
    The ANZAC countries keep Defence Force and Veterans pensions and superannuation separate from the Defence Budget and are paid by both countries respective Social Security departments. Likewise Police Officers and Fire & Emergency personnel come from the public purse either national or in some OZ jurisdictions at state level. Best approach in my view.

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  23. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Why would it be when all Departments pay is called out in the Estimates under the appropriate vote?

    What we really need is “Army Pensions” taken out of the “Defence Group”!
    Why call it out separately when Gardai for example aren’t
    As it stands, unless I am missing something, Defence is 2 votes. (In the Finance Vote group).Vote 35 is Army Pensions (Not Naval or Air Corps) Over €254m for 2020. (How are we still spending €229000 on Veterans and spouses of the War of Independence? It was over 100 years ago, we have no citizens over the age of 107). Vote 36 is Defence,(Over €756m) of which €781m is for Actual defence, the remainder which is Wages and Admin.

    Vote 20 is Garda. (In the Taoiseachs Vote group) €1.7bn, of which €1.1bn is Pay. Pensions are not included on the Pay subhead, they are part of Appropriations in aid, €33m and are accounted for separately (Subhead B).
    Why is Defence pension bill higher than that of AGS so much that is justifies an entire Vote?

    Could both votes not be treated equally? I understand Garda is different purely in how the GS receive monies from external sources that the DF do not (collection of fines and gun licence fees for example), but otherwise...

    Worth noting that GS get their vehicles via OPW, Garda make request, vehicles are provided to OPW, garda draw down from OPW catalogue and equip as required. DF does its own procurement, possibly adding to costs somewhat.. Army buys Truck, it is theirs from delivery. Garda vehicle remains OPW until accepted by GS.
    Last edited by na grohmiti; 21st September 2020 at 13:40.
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  25. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    As it stands, unless I am missing something, Defence is 2 votes. (In the Finance Vote group).Vote 35 is Army Pensions (Not Naval or Air Corps) Over €254m for 2020. (How are we still spending €229000 on Veterans and spouses of the War of Independence? It was over 100 years ago, we have no citizens over the age of 107). Vote 36 is Defence,(Over €756m) of which €781m is for Actual defence, the remainder which is Wages and Admin.

    Vote 20 is Garda. (In the Taoiseachs Vote group) €1.7bn, of which €1.1bn is Pay. Pensions are not included on the Pay subhead, they are part of Appropriations in aid, €33m and are accounted for separately (Subhead B).
    Why is Defence pension bill higher than that of AGS so much that is justifies an entire Vote?

    Could both votes not be treated equally? I understand Garda is different purely in how the GS receive monies from external sources that the DF do not (collection of fines and gun licence fees for example), but otherwise...

    Worth noting that GS get their vehicles via OPW, Garda make request, vehicles are provided to OPW, garda draw down from OPW catalogue and equip as required. DF does its own procurement, possibly adding to costs somewhat.. Army buys Truck, it is theirs from delivery. Garda vehicle remains OPW until accepted by GS.
    Just to clarify, the Defence Vote 2019 was 758m, of which 529m was for pay of 10,500 personnel inclusive of 9,500 PDF, the remaining 229m was for guns and bullets plus usual bits and bob to run an Army. In the Global defence strengths table we rate 99th out of 138 considered.

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  27. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    Severe shortage at LS rank too.

    The ship cannot sail without an NCO.

    ABs leaving to do any type of work

    POs retire after 21 years (old contract) to work part time in other jobs locally.

    Coast Guard is still an option but based in Dublin, Valentia and Malin.

    Approx 10 15 ex NS currently working in the Coastguard CRS


    The solution is simple, make seagoing financially attractive through an large increase in PDA.

    At least €50 a day into the hand makes that a reality.

    When you consider that a Private soldier earns €83 a day in Portlaoise Prison security duty, it should be equal to that for a sailor at sea.
    Very simple solution if PDA was made tax free.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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  29. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Very simple solution if PDA was made tax free.
    Looking at payments and pensions to Gardai there is a frightening gap between a garda and a person of Sergeant rank of about 9000 Euro a year. It is all well laid out in an outline, published by ARCO on New Pensions Cap 2020 for those that work in a public Service job after leaving the PDF or the Gardai. I've had no pension adjustment in 10 years other than a 12.5% cut under FEMPI now restored in 2020. In that time certain elements including TD's and Gardai got pay and pension increases.

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  31. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Looking at payments and pensions to Gardai there is a frightening gap between a garda and a person of Sergeant rank of about 9000 Euro a year. It is all well laid out in an outline, published by ARCO on New Pensions Cap 2020 for those that work in a public Service job after leaving the PDF or the Gardai. I've had no pension adjustment in 10 years other than a 12.5% cut under FEMPI now restored in 2020. In that time certain elements including TD's and Gardai got pay and pension increases.
    Garda rep groups shout louder, and have no fear of the nuclear option. While the "Blue Flu" may have caused certain negative publicity, it delivered, and recent threats of a repeat were answered quickly. TDs are benefactors of "a rising tide that lifts all boats" their wages being tied to that of higher level civil servants.
    While the Gross pay of a Sgt may be higher than a garda at top rate at grade, the Sgt is entitled to less allowances than a garda, and in many cases on promotion ends up with less than when they were a Garda. The last FEMPI restoration is due next week I believe, however inflation happened in the meantime, so you are still ending up with less than you should have been getting had FEMPI not happened. Todays € does not have the same buying power that it had in 2009, your shopping basket costs 5.7% more.
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  33. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    You've got it in one there.

    If we see transport aircraft, a more capable navy and a revitalised reserve in my time, I'll be happy with that.
    If we want a purposeful Navy- going by Global Strengths Tables- we need to aspire to the following Fleet ship types. Frigate X 1, Corvette X 1, Logistics X 1, OPV 90 X 5, MCM adaptable x 3, SSK x 3, and 30m Training Craft X 3 , plus a second port base, and a port of refuge on west coast maybe Killybegs. Not all would be new builds. Coupled with all of that an MOU with friendly countries for training and exercises.

  34. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    If we want a purposeful Navy- going by Global Strengths Tables- we need to aspire to the following Fleet ship types. Frigate X 1, Corvette X 1, Logistics X 1, OPV 90 X 5, MCM adaptable x 3, SSK x 3, and 30m Training Craft X 3 , plus a second port base, and a port of refuge on west coast maybe Killybegs. Not all would be new builds. Coupled with all of that an MOU with friendly countries for training and exercises.
    What would be the capital spend required for the above and how much annual expenditure would be required to maintain all of these assets and the personnel required to operate them?

  35. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    If we want a purposeful Navy- going by Global Strengths Tables- we need to aspire to the following Fleet ship types. Frigate X 1, Corvette X 1, Logistics X 1, OPV 90 X 5, MCM adaptable x 3, SSK x 3, and 30m Training Craft X 3 , plus a second port base, and a port of refuge on west coast maybe Killybegs. Not all would be new builds. Coupled with all of that an MOU with friendly countries for training and exercises.
    Some years ago a panel of experts came up with a "fantasy fleet" to suit Ireland's needs at the time. They proposed it to the government during the White Paper consultation. It used to be online, but it was much more ambitious.
    The problem is not the capital spend required to reach it but why we didn't already have it. Once we have it, we just maintain that status quo. Correcting the anomaly that is the Naval service strength should have been dealt with as soon as we went to 9 ships.
    To hell with public opinion, the public don't have a clue. The result of any election is all the evidence you need for that. I see idiots on Linkedin, of all places whining about the Air Corps getting three more private jets last week, FFS.
    Following a recent move, I was looking through some old newspaper clippings I used to keep of Defence related news from the early 80s. Nothing has changed, except the people involved.
    We don't have enough ships, more are on the way... We need more people to crew them, but the wages are terrible (the recession in the 80s saved the Defence Forces from vanishing, but recruitment remained sporadic). Foreign warplanes routinely fly through our airspace, we are powerless to stop them. (C5 Galaxys flew over Ireland on their way to Greenham Common). Our troops overseas need better protection both by way of equipment and morale.
    Meanwhile, the government get another pay raise....
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  37. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Some years ago a panel of experts came up with a "fantasy fleet" to suit Ireland's needs at the time. They proposed it to the government during the White Paper consultation. It used to be online, but it was much more ambitious.
    The problem is not the capital spend required to reach it but why we didn't already have it. Once we have it, we just maintain that status quo. Correcting the anomaly that is the Naval service strength should have been dealt with as soon as we went to 9 ships.
    To hell with public opinion, the public don't have a clue. The result of any election is all the evidence you need for that. I see idiots on Linkedin, of all places whining about the Air Corps getting three more private jets last week, FFS.
    Following a recent move, I was looking through some old newspaper clippings I used to keep of Defence related news from the early 80s. Nothing has changed, except the people involved.
    We don't have enough ships, more are on the way... We need more people to crew them, but the wages are terrible (the recession in the 80s saved the Defence Forces from vanishing, but recruitment remained sporadic). Foreign warplanes routinely fly through our airspace, we are powerless to stop them. (C5 Galaxys flew over Ireland on their way to Greenham Common). Our troops overseas need better protection both by way of equipment and morale.
    Meanwhile, the government get another pay raise....
    Is there a link for the "fantasy fleet"?

  38. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    What would be the capital spend required for the above and how much annual expenditure would be required to maintain all of these assets and the personnel required to operate them?
    As well as just thinking about the capital spend it must be seen how expanded and new capabilities could be added, and not just with the NS. Any serious plan would be on the 10-15-20 year range and trying to get a commitment over such a time frame will be even more difficult. But on the cost side if we did raise the % of goverment spending toward the 5% level which the rest of the EU is targeting then financing fleet expansion would not be an issue.

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    This debate is going on for some time here is an extract from a memo from a lttle while ago, full memo in the link below

    Of course, the most effective defensive craft for our purposes would be the submarine and the ultimate acquisition of a few of the smaller type known as 'Coastal' ones should always be kept in view even if we have only a very limited Naval Service.
    https://www.difp.ie/docs/1926/Coastal-Defence/740.htm

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