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  • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
    Fair point. Numbers of subscribers must have well dwindled by point it ended its print room. I can't imagine many young service members or those considering joining would have had uch interest in a subscription.

    Any journals you'd recommend? Publications put out by RACO etc is it?
    That exactly. The Retired officers also have a pretty good one, think it is free online. More educated audience. Not bluffers like us
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
      What really strikes me about this article is how candid it is. I only started reading an Cosantoir many years after this issue was published and all articles these days are pretty much a love letter to the defence forces.

      I can't remember reading any article critical of defence policy and procurement in the magazine within the last ten years.
      Interesting that in 1977 the then Minister said 15 Ocean going ship and 10 Coastal Patrol vessels would be required!!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
        Interesting that in 1977 the then Minister said 15 Ocean going ship and 10 Coastal Patrol vessels would be required!!
        That was before Spain joined the EEC. They were a third country then, who spent most of their time fishing in Irish waters....

        Back to the title and theme of the thread, if we have to think outside the box, is there a case to be made for introducing a form of Conscription? School leavers get a gap year/2 years and unless they have other plans, commit to joining as an Ordinary rating. Once they complete 2 years probationary period, they or the DF decide if they want to remain in the service.
        Allow an opt out scheme, but otherwise once you complete formal education, you are in uniform.
        There is a thought in some circles that the online presence is not enough to encourage the right recruit to join. Not all young adults spend their days on social media and because of how social media algorithms work, many may not be aware of the service as a career choice. Some may rule it out simply because they never sailed, never learnt to swim or aren't from Cork. School career guidance officers are too busy multitasking to point an outdoor type towards a military career. Naval Port visits have become more scarce in the last year, and with Covid 19 making no plans to leave, this may be the case for the medium term.
        Normal fitness rules apply, as do other screening, you aren't taking everyone in, you just have everyone filling out the application form. Public Appointments section are well able to deal with this. Get people in for a 2 year trial period, with the option to remain with a rolling 5 year contract after that.
        Basically like an organ donor scheme with an opt out. If you decide you don't want to do it while you are still at school, then fine. We won't come looking for you. If you aren't making the grade early on, then you will be released from the system. No point wasting instructors time either.
        I don't like use of the word "conscription" though, it has too many connotations of the US draft or our own issues under British rule.

        Drastic measures need to be taken, the current system is not recruiting enough to backfill numbers leaving.
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

        Comment


        • If one looks at the other three major non-NATO countries in the EU, Sweden, Finland and Austria each has some form of national service.

          Sweden did stop for a few years but found that it was not getting enough recruits to fill all open position even before they decided the threat from Russia had increased. I did like the system in Germany where those who did not do military service did time in other social areas such as in care facilities.

          At present around 55,000 would become eligible so if service was for 2 years that would be a pool of 110,000 to choose from.

          Comment


          • All those with conscription have (roughly speaking) had it for hundreds of years or at the very least had it on occasion

            We have never had it

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
              Fair point. Numbers of subscribers must have well dwindled by point it ended its print room. I can't imagine many young service members or those considering joining would have had uch interest in a subscription.

              Any journals you'd recommend? Publications put out by RACO etc is it?
              An Cosantoir Traditionally (probably up to early 00s) did publish articles that would seek to promote debate on various subject.

              It is the staff that aren’t available

              RACO have Signal which is very good https://www.raco.ie/signal

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                All those with conscription have (roughly speaking) had it for hundreds of years or at the very least had it on occasion

                We have never had it
                Thing is, the children born as a result of millennium celebrations, we missed that baby boom. If we can't fill vacancies through normal means when the target audience has never been larger, there is something wrong.
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  All those with conscription have (roughly speaking) had it for hundreds of years or at the very least had it on occasion

                  We have never had it
                  The British Empire had a different recruitment scheme for hundreds of years, it was called the Press-gang Scheme, operated in every big sea port.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    Thing is, the children born as a result of millennium celebrations, we missed that baby boom. If we can't fill vacancies through normal means when the target audience has never been larger, there is something wrong.
                    Who are of a completely different generation from those born in the 80s with extremely Different expectations (demands possibly being a better word) from every aspect of life

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      Who are of a completely different generation from those born in the 80s with extremely Different expectations (demands possibly being a better word) from every aspect of life
                      Are you suggesting that they won't feel patriotic at the sound of the first few bars of "A fifth of Beethoven"?
                      The whole work/life profile has changed too. When I was in school, you needed a career, ideally you got a job that would see you to retirement. If you were unlucky, the job shut, and you retrained and looked for a new one. I am on Career 3 now, and my peers would consider that a disappointment of sorts. I work with people who approach retirement, having worked in the same organisation since they left school at 18.
                      My Nieces and nephews however, children of the late 90s, have a different viewpoint. One did 2 very different courses in college, succeeding in the 2nd, realised his part time restaurant job was the one he preferred, and now lives in Germany doing it full time, never happier. His brother just started apprenticeship 3, not a care in the world, all the time knowing if this one doesn't work out, the skills he has learnt along the way will stand to him in any future job. He was offered 3 others before he took this one. The motivating factor is money with quality of life. Their cousin is in the post-grad stage of legal training, working a minimum wage job while she finds her feet after finishing her law degree. Her cousin trained as a hairdresser to their mothers disappointment, but now travels the world working for one of the larger cruise liner companies, doing hair for rich grannies heading for their dinner at the captains table..
                      I don't think the organisation has realised that if we manage to get the recruits, we cannot hold them captive until we finish with them. They will grow out of the defence forces, and bring the skills we gave them back to society, if we treat them well.
                      If we admonish them, they will turn their back on everything we trained them for. I have far too many friends who were excellent operators in the Defence Forces, all who left because the DF did not treat them fairly, all gone to earn double the money they used to, all who could have improved the organisation with their abilities had they remained.

                      It isn't the 80s any more.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        Who are of a completely different generation from those born in the 80s with extremely Different expectations (demands possibly being a better word) from every aspect of life
                        We are, in the march through the ages, where we are. The key is adaptability and a lot of flexibility. In the last two decades we have made it more difficult to GET anything and JOIN anything. Trying to get through the Operational Technology of large Companies and Government puts weeks of communications blockages to be overcome, followed by series of interviews and travel to get to the day of your limited chance and choices. It has to be like catching fish, use the right equipment, and get them in the right place. A well publicised campaign, with no black magic, and an open door continuous recruiting system, may be more successful. In an interview campaign if 1000 are interviewed and only 100 are picked, why waste the 900. It is mainly the system and mind set of the modern DOD that has caused recruiting to be a difficult childbirth.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                          An Cosantoir Traditionally (probably up to early 00s) did publish articles that would seek to promote debate on various subject.

                          It is the staff that aren’t available

                          RACO have Signal which is very good https://www.raco.ie/signal
                          I had a quick leaf through a few editions this morning. Looks like good stuff. Far greater depth than an Cosantoir. Looking forward to reading now.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                            What would be the capital spend required for the above and how much annual expenditure would be required to maintain all of these assets and the personnel required to operate them?
                            A while back as a paper exercise I did an estimate of a fleet very similar to that proposed in the An Cosantóir article.
                            It was a 12 year plan which would need to ramp up to on average €600 for both CapEx & OpEx per year and 3,200 as a minimum establishment.
                            That level of spending would only be reached if the defence budget was 5% of government spending (excluding pandemic spending).

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              A while back as a paper exercise I did an estimate of a fleet very similar to that proposed in the An Cosantóir article.
                              It was a 12 year plan which would need to ramp up to on average €600 for both CapEx & OpEx per year and 3,200 as a minimum establishment.
                              That level of spending would only be reached if the defence budget was 5% of government spending (excluding pandemic spending).
                              The longer we wait, the costlier it becomes. Imagine if, in 1923, as originally proposed, the Free State navy had begun life with a mix of Sub Hunting destroyers and armed trawlers, (the Frigates and CPVs of their time) and retained this capability? Even if the WW2 era Corvettes, tried and tested, were modernised when they became obsolete instead of retained in service, with 2 hulls being used to keep the third hull operational?
                              More recently, imagine if the Ton class minesweepers were replaced with Tripartite, River or Sandown minehunters?
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                                We are, in the march through the ages, where we are. The key is adaptability and a lot of flexibility. In the last two decades we have made it more difficult to GET anything and JOIN anything. Trying to get through the Operational Technology of large Companies and Government puts weeks of communications blockages to be overcome, followed by series of interviews and travel to get to the day of your limited chance and choices. It has to be like catching fish, use the right equipment, and get them in the right place. A well publicised campaign, with no black magic, and an open door continuous recruiting system, may be more successful. In an interview campaign if 1000 are interviewed and only 100 are picked, why waste the 900. It is mainly the system and mind set of the modern DOD that has caused recruiting to be a difficult childbirth.
                                In an Irish Examiner piece, today 9th October 2020, 5 Naval Ships tied up due to Fire and manpower shortages. At the same time in Defence Facebook page the Navy is open again to recruitment. National recruiting in the middle of CAO seems a bit presumptuous and unlikely to produce the couple of hundred needed to fill all vacancies. In addition to normal recruits we need to fill Technical trainee vacancies in all technical trades for ERA, EA, RRM, Shipwrights etc. We have to find a way to make recruiting for the Naval Service more attractive and less exclusive by putting emphasis on training to reach the standards required while getting worthwhile remuneration both ashore and at sea.

                                Comment

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