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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I can’t remember exactly but the target is that the NS fleet has to be at sea/capable of being put to sea with x hours ..... a very high percentage of time

    But they don’t have the establishment for that never mind the strength
    The powers that decide were told what the establishment should be for each ship type. The idea was that if you added a ship type then you added the agreed crew strengths to the Establishment plus necessary Sea Going replacements in the knock on effect. In the Draft for the New Naval Structure for Naval base. Ships, Dockyard and HQ the Strength was AFAIK in excess of 1200 for, at the time, a 6 ship Fleet. It is now 9 ships without stipulated manpower.
    I accept Bravo 20 remarks about PDA aka SGA and agree it should be a Tax Credit or Free of tax.

    Notice was tiered with a ship varying from maximum agreed notice in the Basin, to standard operational notice at the OW. Once out on SO the ship remained at Immediate notice throughout her patrol duration. Notice could also be meaningless as a laid-up ship could be brought to 72 hours notice and rushed out with re-calls and replacements using chaos theory.

  2. #152
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    I'm sure it's a political minefield but was there ever consideration made from transferring manpower from the army to the navy within the DoD? Basically, remove an infantry battalion and recruit those numbers into the Navy?

    The split for the NZDF is Army 4,584, Navy 2,132 and Air Force 2,403. If you reduce down the size of the air force to reflect the size of the Air Corps, it isn't too far off our PDF establishment...

    Note: I'm not suggesting a 2000 + person NS but a 200+ extra bodies wouldn't go astray if they could be motivated to join and stay in.
    Last edited by Auldsod; 26th October 2018 at 09:39.

  3. #153
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The powers that decide were told what the establishment should be for each ship type. The idea was that if you added a ship type then you added the agreed crew strengths to the Establishment plus necessary Sea Going replacements in the knock on effect. In the Draft for the New Naval Structure for Naval base. Ships, Dockyard and HQ the Strength was AFAIK in excess of 1200 for, at the time, a 6 ship Fleet. It is now 9 ships without stipulated manpower.
    I accept Bravo 20 remarks about PDA aka SGA and agree it should be a Tax Credit or Free of tax.

    Notice was tiered with a ship varying from maximum agreed notice in the Basin, to standard operational notice at the OW. Once out on SO the ship remained at Immediate notice throughout her patrol duration. Notice could also be meaningless as a laid-up ship could be brought to 72 hours notice and rushed out with re-calls and replacements using chaos theory.
    A long time and water under the bridge since there was a 6 ship navy

    I think it was something like 90% to be available in less than xx hours (opsec but a lot less than 72)

    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    I'm sure it's a political minefield but was there ever consideration made from transferring manpower from the army to the navy within the DoD? Basically, remove an infantry battalion and recruit those numbers into the Navy?

    The split for the NZDF is Army 4,584, Navy 2,132 and Air Force 2,403. If you reduce down the size of the air force to reflect the size of the Air Corps, it isn't too far off our PDF establishment...

    Note: I'm not suggesting a 2000 + person NS but a 200+ extra bodies wouldn't go astray if they could be motivated to join and stay in.
    Only ever heard of people transferring from NS to army

  4. #154
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Only ever heard of people transferring from NS to army
    I mean a fundamental reorganisation of the establishment of the Army and Navy.

  5. #155
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    what would actually happen - is that 200 bods would be let go from army with the "intention" of not recruiting 200 replacements for the army, but instead increasing naval establishment x 200 - nobody wants to join the navy these days so this would never happen and we would end up with effective strength at 9300
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  7. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    what would actually happen - is that 200 bods would be let go from army with the "intention" of not recruiting 200 replacements for the army, but instead increasing naval establishment x 200 - nobody wants to join the navy these days so this would never happen and we would end up with effective strength at 9300
    I still think we should try an open door recruiting policy for the Naval Service by using Reserve Cadre offices in Dublin, Waterford, Cork, and Limerick as drop in recruiting offices . They would issue warrants and joining instructions for any survivors of grilling and chat from regular staffs. You could also have a nominated Office in the Naval Base, Galway and Athlone for naval Recruiting. It worked before and could be time limited for all venues.
    Nobody wants to join could be a sub set of nobody knows what is on offer or the opportunities that arise quite frequently like 5 young techs getting their degrees in Electronic Engineering in the last week.

  8. #157
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I still think we should try an open door recruiting policy for the Naval Service by using Reserve Cadre offices in Dublin, Waterford, Cork, and Limerick as drop in recruiting offices . They would issue warrants and joining instructions for any survivors of grilling and chat from regular staffs. You could also have a nominated Office in the Naval Base, Galway and Athlone for naval Recruiting. It worked before and could be time limited for all venues.
    Nobody wants to join could be a sub set of nobody knows what is on offer or the opportunities that arise quite frequently like 5 young techs getting their degrees in Electronic Engineering in the last week.
    Things have got more complicated in the recruitment space since however. They would need to pass fitness test, medical checks as well as get security clearance etc. I think the Navy would end up in worse situation if it took in recruits after just an interview with cadre staff.

    It was also good to see the young techs get their degrees but let us not forget that you could get the same qualification straight from school without the pressures of military life. Getting paid to do post graduate qualifications is a bigger draw but that's something only in officer and SNCO world.

  9. #158
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    There is a certain logic in what ancientmariner says. Walk-in interviews are still a popular method for recruiting in industry, and using the cadre offices may be less intimidating, (and more secure) than insisting on initial interview beyond the barrack gate. Medical and Security checks can be done quickly when necessary.

    Perhaps the concept of the "queens shilling" may also inspire recruitment? Agree payment fo applicants of travel expenses to a set maximum on completion (successfully or unsuccessfully) of the recruitment process. Is a potential recruit from Galway going to make the journey to Cork for a fitness test that he or she may or may not pass when his or her dole for the week barely covers the train fare? Are we restricting the best potential candidates due to their economic circumstances?
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  10. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    There is a certain logic in what ancientmariner says. Walk-in interviews are still a popular method for recruiting in industry, and using the cadre offices may be less intimidating, (and more secure) than insisting on initial interview beyond the barrack gate. Medical and Security checks can be done quickly when necessary.

    Perhaps the concept of the "queens shilling" may also inspire recruitment? Agree payment fo applicants of travel expenses to a set maximum on completion (successfully or unsuccessfully) of the recruitment process. Is a potential recruit from Galway going to make the journey to Cork for a fitness test that he or she may or may not pass when his or her dole for the week barely covers the train fare? Are we restricting the best potential candidates due to their economic circumstances?
    I know the UK military will provide such compensation for travelling with warrants etc. I'm not sure if the administrative or cultural will is in our own DF to move to such a process. Haulbowline is quite a trek when you've nocar especially when 90% of applicants will have no knowledge of the launch from Cobh (and probably shouldn't be on it anyway).

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  12. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    I know the UK military will provide such compensation for travelling with warrants etc. I'm not sure if the administrative or cultural will is in our own DF to move to such a process. Haulbowline is quite a trek when you've nocar especially when 90% of applicants will have no knowledge of the launch from Cobh (and probably shouldn't be on it anyway).
    AFAIK warrants for recruit applicants were issuable at all outposts. The applicants had a basic medical and were sent on their way to Naval Base. We usually took 7/9 wks to Finally approve subject to getting Garda Clearance. They weren't finally dressed until finally approved. The educational standard would have to be Inter Certificate or better. Reservists with Service friendly employers should be called up for 6 month stints every 3 or 4 years for sea and professional training in all branches.

  13. #161
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post

    It was also good to see the young techs get their degrees but let us not forget that you could get the same qualification straight from school without the pressures of military life. .
    and without the pay and/or hands on experience where you will be working.

    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    using the cadre offices may be less intimidating, (and more secure) than insisting on initial interview beyond the barrack gate. Medical and Security checks can be done quickly when necessary.

    Perhaps the concept of the "queens shilling" may also inspire recruitment? Agree payment fo applicants of travel expenses to a set maximum on completion (successfully or unsuccessfully) of the recruitment process. Is a potential recruit from Galway going to make the journey to Cork for a fitness test that he or she may or may not pass when his or her dole for the week barely covers the train fare? Are we restricting the best potential candidates due to their economic circumstances?
    Except in 3 of the 4 NSR locations, they are within barracks

    Absolutely agree on travel expenses (but I’d say on paid on actually turning up) and/or (it may happen already) send your NS interview board (of what 4 people) to Limerick, Galway and Dublin to conduct interviews. The downside of course being a lot of people will not have seen Haulbowline before. Maybe an overnight like the cadets?


    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    AFAIK warrants for recruit applicants were issuable at all outposts. The applicants had a basic medical and were sent on their way to Naval Base. We usually took 7/9 wks to Finally approve subject to getting Garda Clearance. They weren't finally dressed until finally approved. The educational standard would have to be Inter Certificate or better. Reservists with Service friendly employers should be called up for 6 month stints every 3 or 4 years for sea and professional training in all branches.
    Fitness, Medicals and security clearance are the major things

    Also not forgetting your going to have to pay your GP for the initial ok to do the fitness test

  14. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    and without the pay and/or hands on experience where you will be working.


    Except in 3 of the 4 NSR locations, they are within barracks

    Absolutely agree on travel expenses (but I’d say on paid on actually turning up) and/or (it may happen already) send your NS interview board (of what 4 people) to Limerick, Galway and Dublin to conduct interviews. The downside of course being a lot of people will not have seen Haulbowline before. Maybe an overnight like the cadets?




    Fitness, Medicals and security clearance are the major things

    Also not forgetting your going to have to pay your GP for the initial ok to do the fitness test
    Which locations do you refer? I know while Limerick is within the Barrack footprint, it is external to the Barracks itself.
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  16. #163
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    Which locations do you refer? I know while Limerick is within the Barrack footprint, it is external to the Barracks itself.
    Every days a school day

    DUNSR - Dublin - within secure CBB
    WUNSR - Waterford - RDF location outside manned barracks
    CUNSR - Cork - within secure Naval Base
    LUNSR - Limerick - see above

  17. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by koppiteal View Post
    Any truth in rumour NSR are being invited to transfer across to NS
    It was some clown in the RDF or NSR that started that on his own, wasn't authorised by or come from the Naval Service.

  18. #165
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    However, any advantage the DF gets with regard to pay will be quickly followed by a reciprocal request from the rest of the civil service.
    Yup if you go on a three weeker 120 miles off the west coast, be my guest,

    The criteria needs to be very specific as it was fior the issuing of bond... oh ! there we go precedent already set for tax exemption....
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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  20. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Yup if you go on a three weeker 120 miles off the west coast, be my guest,

    The criteria needs to be very specific as it was fior the issuing of bond... oh ! there we go precedent already set for tax exemption....
    Even that has had its issues.
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  22. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    I mean a fundamental reorganisation of the establishment of the Army and Navy.
    The ships requirement is as Stephen Hawking would say calculable by proving formula. The Navy needs Base, Dockyard, and College garrisons plus 912 seagoing personnel of appropriate ranks and qualifications. Recruits and trainees of all types should be held in a separate cadre plus to the establishment.

    Ships (2.25 Crews) Base + 200, Trainees 125 = 911 +200 + 125=1236. The base may need more personnel to cover Ordnance, Dockyard and Civil OPW.

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  24. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The ships requirement is as Stephen Hawking would say calculable by proving formula. The Navy needs Base, Dockyard, and College garrisons plus 912 seagoing personnel of appropriate ranks and qualifications. Recruits and trainees of all types should be held in a separate cadre plus to the establishment.

    Ships (2.25 Crews) Base + 200, Trainees 125 = 911 +200 + 125=1236. The base may need more personnel to cover Ordnance, Dockyard and Civil OPW.
    AND F. O. and his NHQ staffs. Grand total say 1250ish.

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  26. #169
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    It was some clown in the RDF or NSR that started that on his own, wasn't authorised by or come from the Naval Service.
    I think one of the papers had a quote from the DOD confirming this.

  27. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    I think one of the papers had a quote from the DOD confirming this.
    They only confirmed that NSR members were indeed contacted regarding joining the Naval Service, they didn't say who by.

  28. #171
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    The request came to the 4 NSR Commanding Officers from the Army.

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  30. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by popeye View Post
    The request came to the 4 NSR Commanding Officers from the Army.
    so outside their CoC

  31. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by popeye View Post
    The request came to the 4 NSR Commanding Officers from the Army.
    From an individual in the RDF.

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  33. #174
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    The article had a quote from the DF Press Office confirming that the reservists had been contacted. If it was a solo run by an RDF officer they would have said that or denied that the reservists had been officially contacted. Of course this could be all fake news.

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  35. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    They only confirmed that NSR members were indeed contacted regarding joining the Naval Service, they didn't say who by.
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/...e+force#g110.q


    Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
    Link to this: Individually | In context

    96. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if letters of invitation are being issued to Naval Service reservists to transfer to the Naval Service; and his views whether this is an appropriate method of recruitment for the Defence Forces. [44069/18]

    Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
    Link to this: Individually | In context

    The Naval Service Reserve (NSR) is an important component of the Defence Forces and there are 125 effective personnel in the NSR (as at end August).

    I am informed by the military authorities that an informal query was issued by a staff officer in the Reserve Defence Force (RDF) Directorate to ascertain if any Naval Service Reservists were interested in joining the Permanent Defence Force in the future. The military authorities has confirmed that no letters of invitation to transfer to the Naval Service from the Reserve have been issued.

    The RDF has typically been a source of recruitment to the PDF and over the years people who have joined the Army Reserve or Naval Service Reserve have subsequently pursued a full time military career.

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