Originally posted by TangoSierra
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manning levels, the future.
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Originally posted by Dogwatch View PostAll well and good to do that, but that does not resolve the current key issue that the government are NOT remunerating DF personnel at a rate commensurate with their skillset and experience and with regard to their separation. If the leaks are to be believed, AC pilots will get allowances (Air Component operations supported), overseas allowance increased (land component supported) and PDA brought up a meager €5 .... Maritime Component supported?
Sea going has to be incentivised.
No point looking ahead 20 years while we wither on the vine.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Originally posted by Sparky42 View PostSeems that Coveney might actually be interested in trying to find ways to fix the crisis:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40017806.htmlCovid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Great (or not) to see he has said there is no time to wait for the special report in 2 years time, as laid down in the program for government.
Hopefully the downturn in the cruise industry will see a return of the many Irish crew, highly qualified and experienced, but used to being treated like slaves. A well worded DE competition could lure them to the NS to fill vital roles at sea.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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It will take much more than a global recession to solve the issue of recruitment and retention in the Naval Service. As it stands the system is fundamentally broken and it will take much more than the current economic situation to save it. The requirement for an 8-ship NS, as per the first White Paper is 1144 personnel, reduced to 1094 in 2010, the point where many of the current issues emerge. The requirement for a 9-ship NS is approx. 1200 personnel. It is currently 887 (31 May 20) and falling (45 awaiting discharge). At current NS College capacity 96 recruits per annum can be passed out without derailing all other courses, so a minimum of 3.5 years to close the gap between 887 and 1200, not including training losses, retirements on age grounds etc. So realistically it would take the guts of a decade to solve the NS personnel issue.Last edited by Egbeygia; 18 July 2020, 18:46.
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Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostToo late for recruitment, retention is now the issue.
Retention has lead to ships being tied up but without recruitment (be it DE or otherwise) those ships will stay tied up
Originally posted by na grohmiti View PostGreat (or not) to see he has said there is no time to wait for the special report in 2 years time, as laid down in the program for government.
Hopefully the downturn in the cruise industry will see a return of the many Irish crew, highly qualified and experienced, but used to being treated like slaves. A well worded DE competition could lure them to the NS to fill vital roles at sea.
A/Chef
L/RRT
L/HA
L/EA
L/ERA
DE officer - Bridge Watchkeeper Officer
DE officer - Marine Engineering Officer
DE officer - electrical engineering officer
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Originally posted by DeV View PostYes and no
Retention has lead to ships being tied up but without recruitment (be it DE or otherwise) those ships will stay tied up
Sure there is currently open DE competitions for:
A/Chef
L/RRT
L/HA
L/EA
L/ERA
DE officer - Bridge Watchkeeper Officer
DE officer - Marine Engineering Officer
DE officer - electrical engineering officer
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Yes and no
Retention has lead to ships being tied up but without recruitment (be it DE or otherwise) those ships will stay tied up
People in at DE levels, they still have to go through training to get them to speed and then put them to sea in an understudy capacity where they will be crucified due shortages. Given they are already qualified coming through the door. Buy out option will be cheap so unless you can pay them , make their conditions acceptable,they'll walk
Retention at all levels is the key.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View PostWhat is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. We got some fine techs for all branches in days of yore. Many went on to Lt.Cdr rank. When the Apprentice School was shut where did techs come from then. Is there still a School of catering? DE was usually an emergency measure and it requires a serious New Entry training program of at least 9 weeks.
A recent course in the past few years had nearly 2/3 of places allocated to the NS, whilst one of the brigdes got a single spot. DF has aligned itself to QQI as regards standards in catering so off the top of my head, the basic course is a fair bit longer than 9 weeks.
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View PostWhat is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. We got some fine techs for all branches in days of yore. Many went on to Lt.Cdr rank. When the Apprentice School was shut where did techs come from then. Is there still a School of catering? DE was usually an emergency measure and it requires a serious New Entry training program of at least 9 weeks.
Interestingly, and I am open to correction, I understand the NS is to phase out EAs to be replaced by electrical engineers. Now it used to be that engineers were officers and artificers were junior and senior ratings. Will what was the EA now become another engineering officer?For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View PostWhat is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. ....
Rather, existing members of the PDF can apply for a slot on the TTS (Technician Training Scheme)
That's how it's done now"Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View PostWhat is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. We got some fine techs for all branches in days of yore. Many went on to Lt.Cdr rank. When the Apprentice School was shut where did techs come from then. Is there still a School of catering? DE was usually an emergency measure and it requires a serious New Entry training program of at least 9 weeks.
Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostExperience lost means what ever input at what ever level there will never be enough people to run the courses get the people where you need them to be....3.5 years to fill the gap between 880 and 1200, which menas the first guys in the door will be within insight of the finishing line before the last batch get of their marks. If you can't retain 50% of each intake beyond their initial contract its a decreasing circle.
People in at DE levels, they still have to go through training to get them to speed and then put them to sea in an understudy capacity where they will be crucified due shortages. Given they are already qualified coming through the door. Buy out option will be cheap so unless you can pay them , make their conditions acceptable,they'll walk
Retention at all levels is the key.
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Originally posted by Truck Driver View PostAs previously mentioned, with AAS gone, Apprentices are not inducted straight from civvy street anymore
Rather, existing members of the PDF can apply for a slot on the TTS (Technician Training Scheme)
That's how it's done now
The AAS turned out Military Techs for all trades with an establishment in situ to train them. They arrived at their units as trained service personnel as well as being EA, ERA, RRM etc.
A Naval Electrical officer is usually a degree holder. There is little reason why a current EA, or RRM ,couldn't do an Electronics degree. However every ship needs its hands on EA, RRM, ERA. The Electrical officer spans the whole ship and the integrity of systems for all users of electrical power and distribution, EA's, ERA's and RRM's , keep the bits running.Last edited by ancientmariner; 19 July 2020, 09:37.
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There is little reason why a current EA, or RRM ,couldn't do an Electronics degreeCovid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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