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  1. #276
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    There is a lot of unanalysed statements being made which lack support for the Naval Service and may be demoralising some, including those that would like to join our Branch of the PDF. In days of yore we sent one ship twice to Antwerp to collect weapons and ammunition for the Congo, with one other ship manned to do Fishery Patrols. The first trip to America was done with P31 on task and remainder deployed and did leave and maintenance as normal. To say we cannot support International obligations with 5+1 ( Maintenance ) is short on solidarity and unworthy of those who want to serve.
    Not by me!!!

    An Taoiseach (the Minister) though we had 7 ships - not the NS
    He also though we were looking a ship to the Med - that mission is over

    It would appear from the circular from FOCNS that was on Twitter that it was FOCNS’s decision - IMHO he has made 1000% the correct decision

    DoD attempted to block Op PONTUS after An Taoiseach had announced it on RTE News after an EU meeting.

    The DF could be very important in a few months

  2. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Not by me!!!

    An Taoiseach (the Minister) though we had 7 ships - not the NS
    He also though we were looking a ship to the Med - that mission is over

    It would appear from the circular from FOCNS that was on Twitter that it was FOCNS’s decision - IMHO he has made 1000% the correct decision

    DoD attempted to block Op PONTUS after An Taoiseach had announced it on RTE News after an EU meeting.

    The DF could be very important in a few months
    Indeed not you. Unfortunately it is the presumptive commanders of the Defence Forces in the CS and the Dail. Command and operational development of the PDF is a task of the uniformed branch. It should include responding to requests for elements to visit or engage with friendly forces or countries. Defence Budgets in totality should be usable for such projects. It is only fuel and port costs.

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  4. #278
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    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  6. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I see that this bloke Kehoe has been in his role for 8 years. He must really be quite the house trained hamster by the civil service after that period of time.

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  8. #280
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    I see that this bloke Kehoe has been in his role for 8 years. He must really be quite the house trained hamster by the civil service after that period of time.
    Exactly ..... it’s DoD that’s the problem .... along with a lack of political will to challenge them

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  10. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Exactly ..... it’s DoD that’s the problem .... along with a lack of political will to challenge them
    With less active vessels in service and with just 2 air surveillance assets the political will may challenge them not to mention the environmental and financial cost to Ireland and the food security issue to Europe.

    https://www.fishforward.eu/pl/europe-runs-out-of-fish/

    Illegal Chinese fishing vessels are already fishing further up the Atlantic and will go where they think there is a vacuum that they can exploit.

  11. #282
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    It should be significant but I hardly doubt it will have impact. The event was last week, the Taoiseach has rowed in with Kehoe and the ships have been tied up....... summer break for the Dail is in the offing.. move along , nothing to see. The Maria Bailey thing is not finished yet and you expect Kehoe to fall? I'd bet money this is the last of it.

    But what is constantly overlooked is that FOCNS stuck it to the minister, pushed the doomsday button and got away with it, while the Naval Service is loosing people, the OC has made the Government look like idiots by making a command decision, something no other officer in the DF has had the balls to do.

    While it may not look like a victory a Naval Officer has stood up to the politicians and said'no more' !

    While in the 70s the ships were falling apart and replacements were required and the decision to scrap/ tie them up made economical sense, here we are with two perfectly functional ships tied up because we have no effective minister for defence and those in the service are leaving in droves because the country.. not the government don't care enough to do something about it.....remeber in the Naval Service we are talking about around 1000 people.

    Yes I'm deliberately overlooking the rest of the DF because the jobs don't equate and there are two different battles to be fought, sizeable state assets are now dormant because of results to date and only one person has had the bollocks to put his career in the path of a politician.
    Time for another break I think......

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  13. #283
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    Kehoe's mistake was to take on the IT and the Examiner and label them as fake news.

    They will continue to poke the bear as a result.

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  15. #284
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    It should be significant but I hardly doubt it will have impact. The event was last week, the Taoiseach has rowed in with Kehoe and the ships have been tied up....... summer break for the Dail is in the offing.. move along , nothing to see. The Maria Bailey thing is not finished yet and you expect Kehoe to fall? I'd bet money this is the last of it.

    But what is constantly overlooked is that FOCNS stuck it to the minister, pushed the doomsday button and got away with it, while the Naval Service is loosing people, the OC has made the Government look like idiots by making a command decision, something no other officer in the DF has had the balls to do.

    While it may not look like a victory a Naval Officer has stood up to the politicians and said'no more' !

    While in the 70s the ships were falling apart and replacements were required and the decision to scrap/ tie them up made economical sense, here we are with two perfectly functional ships tied up because we have no effective minister for defence and those in the service are leaving in droves because the country.. not the government don't care enough to do something about it.....remeber in the Naval Service we are talking about around 1000 people.

    Yes I'm deliberately overlooking the rest of the DF because the jobs don't equate and there are two different battles to be fought, sizeable state assets are now dormant because of results to date and only one person has had the bollocks to put his career in the path of a politician.
    Disagree on some points

    A GOC AC pulled 24/7 ATC. That fact came out after the IRCG helicopter crash. In no way did it contribute to the accident or have stopped it happening. It was Withdrawal of a necessary service. It went public in the aftermath but was obviously overshadowed and rightly so.

    Then there was the delay mainly due to DoD in deploying helos to Donegal.



    The Government could change to a SF/PBP alliance tomorrow and nothing would change in 2 years time..... the Minister hears what the DoD wants him to hear

  16. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Disagree on some points

    A GOC AC pulled 24/7 ATC. That fact came out after the IRCG helicopter crash. In no way did it contribute to the accident or have stopped it happening. It was Withdrawal of a necessary service. It went public in the aftermath but was obviously overshadowed and rightly so.

    Then there was the delay mainly due to DoD in deploying helos to Donegal.



    The Government could change to a SF/PBP alliance tomorrow and nothing would change in 2 years time..... the Minister hears what the DoD wants him to hear
    What must STOP is any attempt to continue micromanaging Military/Naval assets. The decision on deployments, how many and where is a matter for the Commanding Officers . Need, appropriateness, urgency, are reasons to send a ship on HADR , especially when a couple of ships plus Marpats , coupled with surface and air AIS will keep the coast covered in exigent scenarios. The only task of Government is to approve or NOT.

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  18. #286
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Disagree on some points

    A GOC AC pulled 24/7 ATC. That fact came out after the IRCG helicopter crash. In no way did it contribute to the accident or have stopped it happening. It was Withdrawal of a necessary service. It went public in the aftermath but was obviously overshadowed and rightly so.

    Then there was the delay mainly due to DoD in deploying helos to Donegal.



    The Government could change to a SF/PBP alliance tomorrow and nothing would change in 2 years time..... the Minister hears what the DoD wants him to hear
    If it had been public knowledge before the crash, it could have been a game changer.
    Time for another break I think......

  19. #287
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    If it had been public knowledge before the crash, it could have been a game changer.
    It could ....... if a a CASA and crew was available !

    No AC asset has ever been a declared SAR asset so everyone knows that when IRCG request an AC asset they aren’t guaranteed it. Why are they not declared assets? Because DoD and Government don’t provide the tasking, resources or budget (it all has to be done from existing resources).

    We know from the AAIU report, that the following MRCC’s initial request at 2203 hrs the AC duty Officer responded within 3 mins to say there was no availability until 0800 hrs.

  20. #288
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    What must STOP is any attempt to continue micromanaging Military/Naval assets. The decision on deployments, how many and where is a matter for the Commanding Officers . Need, appropriateness, urgency, are reasons to send a ship on HADR , especially when a couple of ships plus Marpats , coupled with surface and air AIS will keep the coast covered in exigent scenarios. The only task of Government is to approve or NOT.
    Yes and no.

    Government has to give the broad mission and tasking (based on advice by SG DoD and COS). It then becomes Government Policy.

    It is the DF’s and DoD’s job to implement that policy.

    The execution of the mission is solely the DF’s responsibility.

    DoD (and other Departments) is (should be) to provide the policies and resources to support the DF in the execution of the mission.



    Having said that we live in the world of the strategic corporal and the tactical politician.

    I haven’t come across the phrase “tactical civil servant” yet but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.....



    Patent pending

  21. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    We were able to send Eithne to the US many a time back when we only had a 7 ship fleet. The ships crew was greatly boosted with those in the NS who would not normally be seagoing. Yet we still managed to patrol the EEZ with smaller ships. Similarly we were able to do regular UNIFIL resupply missions, normally of much longer duration than normal patrols. The work at home continued, and ships wen into regular refit as normal.
    How come suddenly we are unable to do anything except the local patrol duties, with 5 out of 9 Operational ships?
    Are the DoD punishing the NS for exposing their incompetence?
    sadly they increased from 3 weeks to 5 weeks,,and constant patrolling by decisions made by a senior officer who was known to have no personal feelings towards family life of members..with that came loss of pay and cut in wages... who if they could get out would stay and put up with that life..so the rot continued and now we see the results,,all started by a man in an office with a sad life..

  22. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Yes and no.

    Government has to give the broad mission and tasking (based on advice by SG DoD and COS). It then becomes Government Policy.

    It is the DF’s and DoD’s job to implement that policy.

    The execution of the mission is solely the DF’s responsibility.

    DoD (and other Departments) is (should be) to provide the policies and resources to support the DF in the execution of the mission.



    Having said that we live in the world of the strategic corporal and the tactical politician.

    I haven’t come across the phrase “tactical civil servant” yet but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.....




    Patent pending
    If you say yes and no, then Defence and Mission has to be continually re-evaluated and we approach the old scenario that the next CS rank to a General or Admiral is Clerical Officer. The decision tactically to say a ship or contingent is available is best decided by the Defence Forces who know their strengths and weaknesses. If proper interaction is going on with meaningful Defence briefings then we should never have reached the Wonky Donkey mode of operations. The truth and facts need to be continually stated that the Naval Service needs much more manpower and infrastructure to run a Nine ship Navy in any event. They could start by building one of those 50 room communal units in the West wall area to house single personnel who wish to live in.

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  24. #291
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    If you say yes and no, then Defence and Mission has to be continually re-evaluated and we approach the old scenario that the next CS rank to a General or Admiral is Clerical Officer. The decision tactically to say a ship or contingent is available is best decided by the Defence Forces who know their strengths and weaknesses. If proper interaction is going on with meaningful Defence briefings then we should never have reached the Wonky Donkey mode of operations. The truth and facts need to be continually stated that the Naval Service needs much more manpower and infrastructure to run a Nine ship Navy in any event. They could start by building one of those 50 room communal units in the West wall area to house single personnel who wish to live in.
    IRT mission - it should be continually assessed to varying degrees by all the above (but not necessarily in all areas) - everything from does it meet current Government policy, has threat assessment changed, are more/less troops required, is additional equipment required, do we need to change legislation, does defence policy need to altered

  25. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    IRT mission - it should be continually assessed to varying degrees by all the above (but not necessarily in all areas) - everything from does it meet current Government policy, has threat assessment changed, are more/less troops required, is additional equipment required, do we need to change legislation, does defence policy need to altered
    In the real world, the General Staff from its sources within and without would advise the Minister and Cabinet of our Defence needs based on National ,International, UN , and EU requirements and obligations if any. The Naval Service is a special case in that it needs to meet operational requirements at sea 24/7, even in peacetime. This means it needs to be properly manned , equipped, fed, and fuelled . The only Naval base/ maintenance facility is in Cork Harbour , and right next door is the Country's only Maritime College, outside of Fishery Schools in Donegal. The Base existence is now under threat from Port Development BUT does NOT appear to be Defended by a Stated Government Policy. If you remember the Department of Defence inherited a large acreage of land and Black Prince Pier on the Western side of Ringaskiddy. In my time our recreation grounds were on the lands Ringaskiddy/ Monkstown area. It was conceded to the Council leaving us to generate a poor playing field on the Steel dump at the Eastern side of the Dockyard. The Navy has always operated under siege with minimal support and occasional fortuitous support from membership of the EU. Defence policy is one of control and minimum spending and manpower thresholds. We may need to look for a new home and put in place a plan for Naval training, maintenance, and fuelling. The traditional away Naval Berths and moorings have disappeared . The threat assessment to be considered is Home Grown.!!

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  27. #293
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    I too remember when the site that now holds NMCI and the associated centres, had signs on the fence saying "Lands property of Dept of Defence". I wonder what we, the taxpayer got in exchange for that land?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  29. #294
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    In the real world, the General Staff from its sources within and without would advise the Minister and Cabinet of our Defence needs based on National ,International, UN , and EU requirements and obligations if any. The Naval Service is a special case in that it needs to meet operational requirements at sea 24/7, even in peacetime. This means it needs to be properly manned , equipped, fed, and fuelled . The only Naval base/ maintenance facility is in Cork Harbour , and right next door is the Country's only Maritime College, outside of Fishery Schools in Donegal. The Base existence is now under threat from Port Development BUT does NOT appear to be Defended by a Stated Government Policy. If you remember the Department of Defence inherited a large acreage of land and Black Prince Pier on the Western side of Ringaskiddy. In my time our recreation grounds were on the lands Ringaskiddy/ Monkstown area. It was conceded to the Council leaving us to generate a poor playing field on the Steel dump at the Eastern side of the Dockyard. The Navy has always operated under siege with minimal support and occasional fortuitous support from membership of the EU. Defence policy is one of control and minimum spending and manpower thresholds. We may need to look for a new home and put in place a plan for Naval training, maintenance, and fuelling. The traditional away Naval Berths and moorings have disappeared . The threat assessment to be considered is Home Grown.!!
    COS is the military advisor and SG DoD is the Defence Policy advisor to the Minister. There is stories going around that SG needs to clear the advise COS offers. I don’t know if it is true or not.

    But in fairness to them, DoD objected to the incinerator


    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I too remember when the site that now holds NMCI and the associated centres, had signs on the fence saying "Lands property of Dept of Defence". I wonder what we, the taxpayer got in exchange for that land?
    NMCI is a PPP, CIT & NS are the public site

  30. #295
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    I have no idea what point you are trying to make there. NMCI and CIT are one and the same. They occupy the same space in ringaskiddy that was once dod property. As do the UCC operated Beaufort centre next door.

    The structure is a ppp, not the college.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  32. #296
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I have no idea what point you are trying to make there. NMCI and CIT are one and the same. They occupy the same space in ringaskiddy that was once dod property. As do the UCC operated Beaufort centre next door.

    The structure is a ppp, not the college.
    https://www.nmci.ie/aboutus

    That's not what the NMCI thinks

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  34. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    https://www.nmci.ie/aboutus

    That's not what the NMCI thinks
    CIT accredits the degrees. Quite common in the education sector. Similar situation with Mary Immaculate College in Limerick and UL. Still separate institutions though.

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  36. #298
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    NMCI is staffed by CIT and NS, degrees accredited by CIT, building etc provided by private sector

  37. #299
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    The point is, what did the DoD get in return for handing their land over to Bovis/NMCI/CIT?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  39. #300
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Probably feck all knowing the DOD. If they are lucky the NS may have free access for their students

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