manning levels, the future.

[Auldsod]

Everyone has a point of view when feeding service personnel. The 02 was berthed at the gasometer in Dublin in the 1960's and the Officers were in the wardroom having their Sunday lunch, with a scuttle open for fresh air. A teenager from a family group looking through the open scuttle shouted " Dad look at those people eating our food". As regards who does what aboard ship, the task is in the title of the Job. My dad joined in 1923 at Beggar's Bush in Dublin. On instruction the first things he bought from pay was a Button stick, tin of Brasso, and a tin of Brown (SCIENCE) Boot Polish, Brushes provided in Kit.

I do remember the shock off a few new-entrants in my first week in when we were expected to head straight to Dunnes and buy polish, shoe brushes and cleaning products for our accommodation. In saying that, a lot of what we needed was on the joining instructions (with the exception of the need for brasso and bottles of flash) but we hadn't even been paid yet. seems to be done thing in other countries too though.

[na grohmiti]

In most places there are on base retailer such as Naafi to provide such items at a fair price.
Templemore used to have this too. You could buy asics runners blackthorn shoes and shoe polish from the canteen for a fraction of the normal retail price.

[Auldsod]

In most places there are on base retailer such as Naafi to provide such items at a fair price.
Templemore used to have this too. You could buy asics runners blackthorn shoes and shoe polish from the canteen for a fraction of the normal retail price.

Agreed. No trapsing around shoe shops to find kiwi parade because Tesco didn't have it.

[DeV]

Different beast at sea though. During the weekend on the base, you queue as you arrive in the galley with those on duties of course skipping to the top.

Note I did say Pln if coming in together

[DeV]

I do remember the shock off a few new-entrants in my first week in when we were expected to head straight to Dunnes and buy polish, shoe brushes and cleaning products for our accommodation. In saying that, a lot of what we needed was on the joining instructions (with the exception of the need for brasso and bottles of flash) but we hadn't even been paid yet. seems to be done thing in other countries too though.

I got an issue boot cleaning kit (brushes, 1 tin of polish, scrubbing brush in a little DF bag) before going on a cse

[Auldsod]

I got an issue boot cleaning kit (brushes, 1 tin of polish, scrubbing brush in a little DF bag) before going on a cse

Sounds very handy. Possibly not issued anymore. I was issued a ridiculous amount of gear and unfortunately the above wasn't one! What polish was it? Issued but not encouraged to use?

[DeV]

Sounds very handy. Possibly not issued anymore. I was issued a ridiculous amount of gear and unfortunately the above wasn't one! What polish was it? Issued but not encouraged to use?

Kiwi Parade Gloss

[TangoSierra]

Just a reminder that 500 x 2-bed apartments could be built on Defence Forces property for €110 Million. Just over half an Multi rôle vessel. (Discount VAT, sale cost, contributions etc). If the capital budget was targeted at supporting the Defence Forces greatest asset - People, this could become a reality in less that 3 years.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...43884?mode=amp

https://www.scsi.ie/documents/get_lo...338&field=file

2 bed apartment would be able to accommodate range of both single and family types (2 x singles, married couple + one child, married couple + two young children)

Obviously a range of 2/3/4/6 bedroom apartment types would be better.

Rent based on 30% median average industrial salary of €30,000, would mean €110 million would be paid back in less than 25 years.

Post 25 year payback, the rental income would pay for 20 new 2-bed apartments per year.

Before anyone gets started on interest, the state is borrowing at zero percent interest over 10 years.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...cy-955303.html

[ancientmariner]

Just a reminder that 500 x 2-bed apartments could be built on Defence Forces property for €110 Million. Just over half an Multi rôle vessel. (Discount VAT, sale cost, contributions etc). If the capital budget was targeted at supporting the Defence Forces greatest asset - People, this could become a reality in less that 3 years.


2 bed apartment would be able to accommodate range of both single and family types (2 x singles, married couple + one child, married couple + two young children)

Obviously a range of 2/3/4/6 bedroom apartment types would be better.

Rent based on 30% median average industrial salary of €30,000, would mean €110 million would be paid back in less than 25 years.

Post 25 year payback, the rental income would pay for 20 new 2-bed apartments per year.

Before anyone gets started on interest, the state is borrowing at zero percent interest over 10 years.

A big chance to build quarters for now and future needs with relative ease to move married families and single personnel. With negative interest rates here the only investments are Buildings, Gold , land , and cash under the Bed. Con-current with housing we need to modernise our all-round response to high intensity operations such as the Turkish knock on the door in Syria. It is a good example of the modern tendancy of WAR ON THE GO!!

[DeV]

We can’t do it for homeless people

[Flamingo]

It would be much easier to deal with serving troops than homeless. None of the issues around mental health / addiction / unemployment / low income associated with some homeless, rent taken at source, disciplinary action can be taken over damage to property by occupants, hygiene and cleanliness standards can be enforced...

[ancientmariner]

We can’t do it for homeless people

Quite correct. Because all building has been vested in building groups that are essentially investors from overseas. They will not build social housing except at a higher cost than Gov. will pay. They want to build apartments and office spaces mostly for lease or rent. They need to revert to funding indigenous builders to build housing on the same procedural model that produced the vast housing estates of suburban Cities post WW11.
For private housing, again in the late 40's and 50's you had NATO ( National Asscn Of Tenants) whereby a group of people would undertake to buy a particular avenue , or drive of houses. It was how we were housed ,after my father left the Army in 1948, at Seapark Drive Clontarf.

[na grohmiti]

The building program that provided development of what would now be considered social housing in 1950s ireland has served us well. They were exceptionally well built, and recent modifications to most have made them very energy efficient homes. My sister owns one, a good friend another. Both required little in the way of extra insulation, the hardest job being trying to do anything involving the rock solid walls. It would make a good long term infrastructure investment for the state to invest in similar modern energy efficient homes.
Apartment blocks, have been shown not to be a long term solution.
However, for the defence forces, to house its young soldiers and their young families, a combination of apartment and duplex developments would be suitable.
It annoyed me somewhat when the former married quarters, built when the British Army operated Sarsfield barracks, were let go derelict, before being unloaded on a developer who turned them into social housing. These could have been homes for employees of that barracks, instead of homes for those outside the fence.

[ancientmariner]

The building program that provided development of what would now be considered social housing in 1950s ireland has served us well. They were exceptionally well built, and recent modifications to most have made them very energy efficient homes. My sister owns one, a good friend another. Both required little in the way of extra insulation, the hardest job being trying to do anything involving the rock solid walls. It would make a good long term infrastructure investment for the state to invest in similar modern energy efficient homes.
Apartment blocks, have been shown not to be a long term solution.
However, for the defence forces, to house its young soldiers and their young families, a combination of apartment and duplex developments would be suitable.
It annoyed me somewhat when the former married quarters, built when the British Army operated Sarsfield barracks, were let go derelict, before being unloaded on a developer who turned them into social housing. These could have been homes for employees of that barracks, instead of homes for those outside the fence.

Very well said and exactly right. Part of the problem is the Ethic within councils and Departments since they got rid of shovels and most outdoor staff. Since the BIN men left they have no idea of whether there is a passable road into anywhere. The whole thing is office bound producing reports and various bits of whatiffery.

[Flamingo]

On a bit of lateral thinking (and using the "Adapt, Improvise, Overcome" concept so familiar to us all), has there ever been any consideration to members of the forces setting up a Housing Association? I

It would be a way for the people who need the housing to take control of the issue, keeping politician's and civil servants at arms length.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_association

[TangoSierra]

The advantage of the State/DoD building housing is that the site cost doesn’t apply, where as a housing association would have to buy land and build the housing

[L.T.Smash!]

The advantage of the State/DoD building housing is that the site cost doesn’t apply, where as a housing association would have to buy land and build the housing

Not to mention the challenge of actually financing such a building project (site costs, planning, construction etc.), you'd need to get the state on board anyways in the form of the capital loan & subsidy scheme or the housing finance agency to make the accommodation affordable.

After that it would likely be self-funding (as someone already noted above).

That's not to say it isn't an interesting idea, it may be more realistic for such an Approved Housing Body to be set up with the cogs turning and housing built, before the powers that be ever issue a tender..... (or identify a solution)

[ancientmariner]

The advantage of the State/DoD building housing is that the site cost doesn’t apply, where as a housing association would have to buy land and build the housing

In the 1948/1952 period when NATO was at it's productive best groups of about 10 tenants, all with grants approved, had blocks of 10 houses built, at about £1200 each and ground rent of about £10/£12 per year. It seemed easy peasy at the time with effort centered around Clontarf, Glasnevin, Killester for private housing. The Department of Defence owned huge tracts of land including the Southern and western side of Cork Harbour and many other areas including Barrack areas in Dublin. Many were squandered to expediency of unknown worth.
The Navy itself may be about to suffer from a similar bout of finality to cure a shortage of manpower problem. There is no shame in a Department that would allow or condone any part of a Defence organisation to become the butt of media ridicule. If ships are to be deleted by retirement then hopefully they will taken out and disposed of by sinkex at a common spot where they can be honoured annually.

[Truck Driver]

We can’t do it for homeless people

And that is exactly what the media would be saying

It would be much easier to deal with serving troops than homeless. None of the issues around mental health / addiction / unemployment / low income associated with some homeless, rent taken at source, disciplinary action can be taken over damage to property by occupants, hygiene and cleanliness standards can be enforced...

Agreed

[ancientmariner]

In the 1948/1952 period when NATO was at it's productive best groups of about 10 tenants, all with grants approved, had blocks of 10 houses built, at about £1200 each and ground rent of about £10/£12 per year. It seemed easy peasy at the time with effort centered around Clontarf, Glasnevin, Killester for private housing. The Department of Defence owned huge tracts of land including the Southern and western side of Cork Harbour and many other areas including Barrack areas in Dublin. Many were squandered to expediency of unknown worth.
The Navy itself may be about to suffer from a similar bout of finality to cure a shortage of manpower problem. There is no shame in a Department that would allow or condone any part of a Defence organisation to become the butt of media ridicule. If ships are to be deleted by retirement then hopefully they will taken out and disposed of by sinkex at a common spot where they can be honoured annually.

I happened to be in Dublin 27th Oct 2019, and due to track maintenance, the first part of our Rail journey to Cork was by bus which passed the Old CLancy barracks site. It was sold by Defence at a time when Senior Civil Servants were demanding the cutting of the PDF Establishment from 12,500 to around 10,500 plus the sale of 6 or more barracks including Clancy barracks. Clancy is now a high end apartment complex managed by an American Fund and charging swingeing rents between E1750 and 2250 PCM. The Americans got the land and 400 apartments for E 84m from a failed Bank start-up.
The Americans are getting about E9m a year in rentals while we are being flushed down the pan by bad decisions of senior Civil Servants.

[Bravo20]

The department sold the site for €25.4 m in 2003. Kennedy Wilson paid €80m for the site and 420 apartments. The Clancy sale was one of the few sites sold at a reasonable price. In 2016 a 0.66 acre site was sold across the road for €1.3M. The site in Clancy is 13.6 acres, at the 2016 price that would equate to €27m.

[ancientmariner]

The department sold the site for €25.4 m in 2003. Kennedy Wilson paid €80m for the site and 420 apartments. The Clancy sale was one of the few sites sold at a reasonable price. In 2016 a 0.66 acre site was sold across the road for €1.3M. The site in Clancy is 13.6 acres, at the 2016 price that would equate to €27m.

The question is what did the Department do with the money-certainly not in new military facilities. The consortium of banks were the initial developers and had spent in excess of E200m on the site and then sold it as you say for E 80m odd,. They will recover their investment in 9/10 years but our guys will still be commuting or living in ships or cars.

[Bravo20]

Oh it was put back into the DF budget, which means it went back to the exchequer. The actuals for 2003 were 32m less than the estimate.

[na grohmiti]

An interesting aside with regards to crewing issues, and the loss of experienced staff.
The accident report into the collision last year between a Tanker and a frigate in the Norwegian fjords has identified the inexperience of the OOW as a contributing factor. A more experienced OOW would have seen the object misidentified as a refinery jetty, maintaining a constant bearing, something stationary objects only do if you are heading towards them, not passing them.

[DeV]

An interesting aside with regards to crewing issues, and the loss of experienced staff.
The accident report into the collision last year between a Tanker and a frigate in the Norwegian fjords has identified the inexperience of the OOW as a contributing factor. A more experienced OOW would have seen the object misidentified as a refinery jetty, maintaining a constant bearing, something stationary objects only do if you are heading towards them, not passing them.

The Norwegian (relatively inexperienced) OOW was also supervising 2 trainees as well