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  1. #326
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    yer preaching to an open door here mate
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  2. #327
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    There needs to be a service driven policy on recruitment and retention based on a longer term strategy than at present. Micro management of the PDF by the Civil Service must stop and connection between Minister and Military must have unfiltered avenues. Stopping and starting recruitment to cover exigencies is counter-productive and wasteful of resources. It also overloads structures during training of larger numbers, especially accommodation and provision of instructors. Because of decisive effects those making Key decisions MUST be of a Military background.
    Which is why the DoD’s job is policy not military.

    So what do you do instead of stop/start recruitment (which means for arguments sake 3
    Recruit Classes annually in the NS)?

    Have a recruit section minus in training at all times?

    The normal sized classes are use resources more efficiently.

    The problem is the much larger classes (which mainly is cadets) and the much higher number of classes (mainly recruits). Why are they needed? Poor retention!

    Turnover is required absolutely - otherwise you have 59 year old privates/ratings, no promotions etc.

    We need a better balance between recruitment and retention. All the attention has been going on recruitment.... which we do need.... but if we can’t retain those recruits it is a losing battle.

    You quite rightly point out that significant resources are being tied up in Cadet and recruit training n

  3. #328
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    There shouldn't necessarily need to be additional but smaller recruit classes every year but there could be a continual open door for potential recruits with fitness testing and medicals being scheduled far more regularly. How many potential soldiers have been lost because they went onto military.ie to see that recruitment was closed and to monitor social media for the next campaign. They probably took another job straight away. If they know they will be joining a class guaranteed in 2-3 months, they'll hold on.

    Cadetships are a different kettle of fish. There should be an awareness of the process and the fact there is only one class per year by the applicant. I'd expect a higher level of research into the role. The website was far better at giving a breakdown, structure and length of training before the redesign.

    No doubt whatever consultants helped with the design pushed for placing as little information online which can be counter-productive.

  4. #329
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    It’s less predictable I suppose, you have been able to apply at anytime as a recruit for at least a few months now.

    The current generation, they want to be able to start within weeks, if they don’t they have generally moved on.

  5. #330
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    It’s less predictable I suppose, you have been able to apply at anytime as a recruit for at least a few months now.

    The current generation, they want to be able to start within weeks, if they don’t they have generally moved on.
    The US and British militaries manage with recruits waiting months to join. May be saying more about the applicants we get. If they are that fickle and are willing to give up on a 'dream' due to a few months wait, are we better off without?

  6. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    The US and British militaries manage with recruits waiting months to join. May be saying more about the applicants we get. If they are that fickle and are willing to give up on a 'dream' due to a few months wait, are we better off without?
    Conversely of course, you could ask why applicants for other militaries are prepared to wait months on end for a joining date - and go through a recruitment procedure that can take more than a year before they get a joining date - but those seeking to join the Irish military aren't?

    If you have a problem with recruitment and a problem with retention, then your problem isn't those who aren't joining and those who are leaving.

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  8. #332
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Conversely of course, you could ask why applicants for other militaries are prepared to wait months on end for a joining date - and go through a recruitment procedure that can take more than a year before they get a joining date - but those seeking to join the Irish military aren't?

    If you have a problem with recruitment and a problem with retention, then your problem isn't those who aren't joining and those who are leaving.
    Agreed

  9. #333
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    The problem is actually deeper than how we recruit..its actually about why we recruit.

    To my mind our recruitment is reactionary rather than planned hence the haphazard nature of when and how. During the recessionary years it was a two fold approach from Government to be seen to create employment and not entirely starve the DF, so while there was recruitment, it wasn't for recruitments sake.

    Notice that retention isn't an issue during recessionary times up to this time where there were pay cuts. The country spent the majority of the 70s and 80s in recession and we end up with the 59 year old privates.

    Contracts were not been managed and once a guy was in , he had a job for life unless he chose to leave, we are even back there again with guys making 21 without advancing past private rank.

    So Manpower management in the army is equally to blame for mismanaging their resources and not turning over people. Not having fully established training structures for new intakes and letting people slip through the next who may have at least gotten in to the systems

    You need two recruitment periods per anum spring an Autumn, the Navy should have at least one class 30 people in recruit training all year round.The autumn one will pick up school leavers straight away and the winter/ spring one those who dropped out of college or whose temp jobs have disappeared after christmas.

    Work Force planning... you know when your people are scheduled to leave... you need to be able to plan to have that void filled within an acceptable period of time.
    Time for another break I think......

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  11. #334
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The problem is actually deeper than how we recruit..its actually about why we recruit.

    To my mind our recruitment is reactionary rather than planned hence the haphazard nature of when and how. During the recessionary years it was a two fold approach from Government to be seen to create employment and not entirely starve the DF, so while there was recruitment, it wasn't for recruitments sake.

    Notice that retention isn't an issue during recessionary times up to this time where there were pay cuts. The country spent the majority of the 70s and 80s in recession and we end up with the 59 year old privates.

    Contracts were not been managed and once a guy was in , he had a job for life unless he chose to leave, we are even back there again with guys making 21 without advancing past private rank.

    So Manpower management in the army is equally to blame for mismanaging their resources and not turning over people. Not having fully established training structures for new intakes and letting people slip through the next who may have at least gotten in to the systems

    You need two recruitment periods per anum spring an Autumn, the Navy should have at least one class 30 people in recruit training all year round.The autumn one will pick up school leavers straight away and the winter/ spring one those who dropped out of college or whose temp jobs have disappeared after christmas.

    Work Force planning... you know when your people are scheduled to leave... you need to be able to plan to have that void filled within an acceptable period of time.
    The only way to keep the force young is to market it as a short to medium term career path. Expect people to leave after five to seven years, or maximum 21 years, and recruit accordingly. Market it as something that in late teens/early twenties will teach you useful transferable life skills with recognised qualifications, so that it is the beginning of a career, not a job for life in itself.

    While retention is good, after what point does an individual become simply a number, providing little value to the organisation long term, and fresh blood in the post from recruitment would be an improvement.

    Good people may be leaving, but I'm sure you could all think of 10% that you wish to God would follow them out the gate and would not be missed!
    Last edited by Flamingo; 4th September 2019 at 12:31.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
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    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  13. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    The only way to keep the force young is to market it as a short to medium term career path. Expect people to leave after five to seven years, or maximum 21 years, and recruit accordingly. Market it as something that in late teens/early twenties will teach you useful transferable life skills with recognised qualifications, so that it is the beginning of a career, not a job for life in itself.

    While retention is good, after what point does an individual become simply a number, providing little value to the organisation long term, and fresh blood in the post from recruitment would be an improvement.

    Good people may be leaving, but I'm sure you could all think of 10% that you wish to God would follow them out the gate and would not be missed!
    There is a mix of reasons why people stay, the most obvious one is job satisfaction and advancement and an opportunity to opt for a pensionable career. The reasons people leave are also mixed but often centre around culture shock of accommodation NOT matching home environment, calibre of the training environment, blocked career choices, limited sporting opportunities , curtailment of extension of service , and real costs of remote living including own choice of off duty accommodation and transport. It is therefore centred around disposable income?

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  15. #336
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The problem is actually deeper than how we recruit..its actually about why we recruit.

    To my mind our recruitment is reactionary rather than planned hence the haphazard nature of when and how. During the recessionary years it was a two fold approach from Government to be seen to create employment and not entirely starve the DF, so while there was recruitment, it wasn't for recruitments sake.

    Notice that retention isn't an issue during recessionary times up to this time where there were pay cuts. The country spent the majority of the 70s and 80s in recession and we end up with the 59 year old privates.

    Contracts were not been managed and once a guy was in , he had a job for life unless he chose to leave, we are even back there again with guys making 21 without advancing past private rank.

    So Manpower management in the army is equally to blame for mismanaging their resources and not turning over people. Not having fully established training structures for new intakes and letting people slip through the next who may have at least gotten in to the systems

    You need two recruitment periods per anum spring an Autumn, the Navy should have at least one class 30 people in recruit training all year round.The autumn one will pick up school leavers straight away and the winter/ spring one those who dropped out of college or whose temp jobs have disappeared after christmas.

    Work Force planning... you know when your people are scheduled to leave... you need to be able to plan to have that void filled within an acceptable period of time.
    Work force planning is a major issue in the DF and I’d imagine that it is a difficult job in fairness, not aided by the work requirements, CS4 or the strength.

    A recruit class in training at all times would mean 3 a year but I’m being pedantic. For every class (and the larger cadet classes), which are needed to replace people who are leaving, you need more instructors and other resources. Those instructors have to be taken from operational units, which means they are even further depleted.

    A major problem also being those recruits in training (like those overseas, on 4 year long TTS etc) are part of your establishment and on paper are supposed to be in the units doing the day-to-day work. Those units don’t have enough on the establishment as is, they are already low on strength and this makes it worse. Which means those left have to work harder and longer.

    That is an issue for the ECF (still in force??) and CS4 (which is being worked on)

    Nor should we have 59 year old privates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    The only way to keep the force young is to market it as a short to medium term career path. Expect people to leave after five to seven years, or maximum 21 years, and recruit accordingly. Market it as something that in late teens/early twenties will teach you useful transferable life skills with recognised qualifications, so that it is the beginning of a career, not a job for life in itself.

    While retention is good, after what point does an individual become simply a number, providing little value to the organisation long term, and fresh blood in the post from recruitment would be an improvement.

    Good people may be leaving, but I'm sure you could all think of 10% that you wish to God would follow them out the gate and would not be missed!
    There is a balance to be struck between recruitment, promotion and retention.

    The DF (If kept to CS4) could possibly cope with (and needs in order to allow for recruitment and promotion) in the region of probably 5-6% staff turnover annually..... that it can cope with.

  16. #337
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    There is a mix of reasons why people stay, the most obvious one is job satisfaction and advancement and an opportunity to opt for a pensionable career. The reasons people leave are also mixed but often centre around culture shock of accommodation NOT matching home environment, calibre of the training environment, blocked career choices, limited sporting opportunities , curtailment of extension of service , and real costs of remote living including own choice of off duty accommodation and transport. It is therefore centred around disposable income?
    Agreed, all these factors influence recruitment, retention and leaving, including income.

    I'm reminded about a discussion once about nurse shortage and attracting students into nursing, and the point being made that if the starting salary was £50k, then a lot more people would prefer to take nursing rather than media studies.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  17. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The problem is actually deeper than how we recruit..its actually about why we recruit.

    To my mind our recruitment is reactionary rather than planned hence the haphazard nature of when and how. During the recessionary years it was a two fold approach from Government to be seen to create employment and not entirely starve the DF, so while there was recruitment, it wasn't for recruitments sake.

    Notice that retention isn't an issue during recessionary times up to this time where there were pay cuts. The country spent the majority of the 70s and 80s in recession and we end up with the 59 year old privates.

    Contracts were not been managed and once a guy was in , he had a job for life unless he chose to leave, we are even back there again with guys making 21 without advancing past private rank.

    So Manpower management in the army is equally to blame for mismanaging their resources and not turning over people. Not having fully established training structures for new intakes and letting people slip through the next who may have at least gotten in to the systems

    You need two recruitment periods per anum spring an Autumn, the Navy should have at least one class 30 people in recruit training all year round.The autumn one will pick up school leavers straight away and the winter/ spring one those who dropped out of college or whose temp jobs have disappeared after christmas.

    Work Force planning... you know when your people are scheduled to leave... you need to be able to plan to have that void filled within an acceptable period of time.
    Why does this sound familiar (bold text)...? Oh yes, RDF recruitment....
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  19. #339
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I should qualify my comment by saying all this is NOT inclusive of Cadets nor would it always be reckonable with the RDF, The two rotation concept would be in place to allow for training of the training staff , re stocking of uniforms and equipment etc for the next intake.

    Again the disadvantages of not having specialized training depots and drawing on units to train their own, something I've always been against.
    Time for another break I think......

  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    There shouldn't necessarily need to be additional but smaller recruit classes every year but there could be a continual open door for potential recruits with fitness testing and medicals being scheduled far more regularly. How many potential soldiers have been lost because they went onto military.ie to see that recruitment was closed and to monitor social media for the next campaign. They probably took another job straight away. If they know they will be joining a class guaranteed in 2-3 months, they'll hold on.

    Cadetships are a different kettle of fish. There should be an awareness of the process and the fact there is only one class per year by the applicant. I'd expect a higher level of research into the role. The website was far better at giving a breakdown, structure and length of training before the redesign.

    No doubt whatever consultants helped with the design pushed for placing as little information online which can be counter-productive.
    The Naval Service have been running monthly recruitment comps for the last 6months. They have a private based in J1. The websites are a product of DF units. Ie we gave a lot of material into the webmaster for the AR site to be up dated with fresh video, images and content. It was launched for the start of the last RDF competition.

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  22. #341
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    There is an article in today's Irish Examiner that Block 8 on Haulbowline Island is going out to tender to be refurbished as an accommodation unit for 85 personnel. Work is to commence in 2020. The stone building 1822 is of course a heritage building. In keeping with modern requirements I am hoping that the floor space per person is at least 16 sq.m and that the building will have fitted out luggage rooms, with adequate room storage, for uniforms and personal equipment. Toilets and showers should be individualised within rooms to allow for gender requirements. Communial and recreational facilities should be included and also parking for private cars. This building refurb. should be matched with a similar capacity new build communial unit on sanitised land on the old ISPAT site.
    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/supplier/publictenders

    Block.jpg


    Published for tender (see attached)

  23. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    I see the contract issued on 11th August 2019 is a joint project at two locations with one builder, one engineer, and one architect, allbeit companies. Will there be a priority in sites completion ?

  24. #343
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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  25. #344
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  27. #345
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    There is a NS going to NY as part of Ireland trying to get a UNSC seat

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  29. #346
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    Been a while since a foreign trip. Long overdue.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  31. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Been a while since a foreign trip. Long overdue.
    Hope they don't have to request freebies from all the big suppliers of dining comestibles, booze, and gifts for US/UN dignitaries. Some of the EURO 29.4m handed back from Defence Budget 2018 should do it. We always felt dirty begging for Waterford Crystal, steaks, cream, wine, and whatever your having yourself, along with dozens of sets of entertainment ware- glasses etc. The trip is a vital confidence builder but the work is hard to make it happen.Without Bord Bia, Guinness, and many, many more, it would not take off.

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  33. #348
    Rittmeister Herald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Hope they don't have to request freebies from all the big suppliers of dining comestibles, booze, and gifts for US/UN dignitaries. Some of the EURO 29.4m handed back from Defence Budget 2018 should do it. We always felt dirty begging for Waterford Crystal, steaks, cream, wine, and whatever your having yourself, along with dozens of sets of entertainment ware- glasses etc. The trip is a vital confidence builder but the work is hard to make it happen.Without Bord Bia, Guinness, and many, many more, it would not take off.
    29.4 million!! F****ng hell! that'd pay the lease on 4 gripens alone for a year!

  34. #349
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Hope they don't have to request freebies from all the big suppliers of dining comestibles, booze, and gifts for US/UN dignitaries. Some of the EURO 29.4m handed back from Defence Budget 2018 should do it. We always felt dirty begging for Waterford Crystal, steaks, cream, wine, and whatever your having yourself, along with dozens of sets of entertainment ware- glasses etc. The trip is a vital confidence builder but the work is hard to make it happen.Without Bord Bia, Guinness, and many, many more, it would not take off.
    I hope that is exactly what they do do. The defence budget should not be used to supplement foreign affairs, IDA, enterprise Ireland, Bord Bia. The cost of the fuel should be cross charged to DFA

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  36. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    I hope that is exactly what they do do. The defence budget should not be used to supplement foreign affairs, IDA, enterprise Ireland, Bord Bia. The cost of the fuel should be cross charged to DFA
    I found the practice demeaning. Defence Budget should be spent, every year in it's totality, so that in lean manpower years , the Services can update to modern weapon systems, accommodation, and transport. It should also cover exigencies demanded of units that require financial expenditure. I agree if tasks are undertaken by Defence on behalf of another Department's Program then they ( DFA ) should foot the Bill. Bord Bia were usually helpful with boxed steaks and frozen cream.

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