manning levels, the future.

[Fantasia]

From memory, the BA had bands and classes of pay within a rank, which would be used to increase pay for qualifications over and above the basic pay for that rank, and could mean somebody getting higher pay than the rank above depending on qualifications. I don't know if it still applies, but don't see why it wouldn't.

Sounds similar to Technical Pay here. The small allowances are not enough in most cases to retain people.

Even those on Tech 6, the highest rate of allowance, are on around €6000 more than the standard rate of pay. An IT guru Sgt is still on well under €50,000 gross a year. When he can walk into another job starting on €70,000 and not have to deal with any of the inconveniences of being in the Defence Forces

[na grohmiti]

Friend of mine left the NS many moons ago from the Comp cen, went into a civvy job in a tech multinational for double the money. His boss was a former PO/RRT. It would take a lot more than €50k a year to attract him back with his skillset.
Then again, that would force an increase in similar tech jobs in the rest of the PS, most of whom hold HEO grade at just over €50K per year.

[morpheus]

I thought IT skills such as Software engineer etc. degrees weren't recognised in the defence forces for tech pay?

[Auldsod]

I thought IT skills such as Software engineer etc. degrees weren't recognised in the defence forces for tech pay?

Would they receive tech pay in the region of tens of thousands of euros so as to attract those with said qualifications?

[TangoSierra]

I thought IT skills such as Software engineer etc. degrees weren't recognised in the defence forces for tech pay?

They're not. Currently the only way for enlisted personnel to qualify for Tech 5/6 pay is to go through the CIS trainee technician scheme. A scheme which is unfit for purpose given the modern needs of the DF.

[ancientmariner]

They're not. Currently the only way for enlisted personnel to qualify for Tech 5/6 pay is to go through the CIS trainee technician scheme. A scheme which is unfit for purpose given the modern needs of the DF.

In a historic sense there was always a tendency for those involved in equipping the PDF with a skills base to offload structures and systems in favour of a ready made solution from civilian 3rd Level Insts. or Universities. The major loss was that inducted personnel had a civilian ethos which by and large wasn't replaced in a deep militarising training programme. We got rid of the Apprentice School and didn't sustain or modernise front edge capabilities in any of the support services such as Aer Corps and Naval Service. We are now confronted by the cyber world and world contagion, and in the latter matter prepared for the eventuality by closing down medical facilities and a coherent staff. What we do and what we've always done is based on the theory that " there will be no fire tonight".

[na grohmiti]

All well and good to do that, but that does not resolve the current key issue that the government are NOT remunerating DF personnel at a rate commensurate with their skillset and experience and with regard to their separation. If the leaks are to be believed, AC pilots will get allowances (Air Component operations supported), overseas allowance increased (land component supported) and PDA brought up a meager €5 .... Maritime Component supported?
Sea going has to be incentivised.
No point looking ahead 20 years while we wither on the vine.

Anyone know what became of Dogwatch? No sign of him since last December.

[Sparky42]

Seems that Coveney might actually be interested in trying to find ways to fix the crisis:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40017806.html

[hptmurphy]

Seems that Coveney might actually be interested in trying to find ways to fix the crisis:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40017806.html

Too late for recruitment, retention is now the issue.

[na grohmiti]

Great (or not) to see he has said there is no time to wait for the special report in 2 years time, as laid down in the program for government.
Hopefully the downturn in the cruise industry will see a return of the many Irish crew, highly qualified and experienced, but used to being treated like slaves. A well worded DE competition could lure them to the NS to fill vital roles at sea.

[Egbeygia]

It will take much more than a global recession to solve the issue of recruitment and retention in the Naval Service. As it stands the system is fundamentally broken and it will take much more than the current economic situation to save it. The requirement for an 8-ship NS, as per the first White Paper is 1144 personnel, reduced to 1094 in 2010, the point where many of the current issues emerge. The requirement for a 9-ship NS is approx. 1200 personnel. It is currently 887 (31 May 20) and falling (45 awaiting discharge). At current NS College capacity 96 recruits per annum can be passed out without derailing all other courses, so a minimum of 3.5 years to close the gap between 887 and 1200, not including training losses, retirements on age grounds etc. So realistically it would take the guts of a decade to solve the NS personnel issue.

[DeV]

Too late for recruitment, retention is now the issue.

Yes and no
Retention has lead to ships being tied up but without recruitment (be it DE or otherwise) those ships will stay tied up

Great (or not) to see he has said there is no time to wait for the special report in 2 years time, as laid down in the program for government.
Hopefully the downturn in the cruise industry will see a return of the many Irish crew, highly qualified and experienced, but used to being treated like slaves. A well worded DE competition could lure them to the NS to fill vital roles at sea.

Sure there is currently open DE competitions for:
A/Chef
L/RRT
L/HA
L/EA
L/ERA
DE officer - Bridge Watchkeeper Officer
DE officer - Marine Engineering Officer
DE officer - electrical engineering officer

[ancientmariner]

Yes and no
Retention has lead to ships being tied up but without recruitment (be it DE or otherwise) those ships will stay tied up




Sure there is currently open DE competitions for:
A/Chef
L/RRT
L/HA
L/EA
L/ERA
DE officer - Bridge Watchkeeper Officer
DE officer - Marine Engineering Officer
DE officer - electrical engineering officer

What is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. We got some fine techs for all branches in days of yore. Many went on to Lt.Cdr rank. When the Apprentice School was shut where did techs come from then. Is there still a School of catering? DE was usually an emergency measure and it requires a serious New Entry training program of at least 9 weeks.

[hptmurphy]

Yes and no
Retention has lead to ships being tied up but without recruitment (be it DE or otherwise) those ships will stay tied up

Experience lost means what ever input at what ever level there will never be enough people to run the courses get the people where you need them to be....3.5 years to fill the gap between 880 and 1200, which menas the first guys in the door will be within insight of the finishing line before the last batch get of their marks. If you can't retain 50% of each intake beyond their initial contract its a decreasing circle.

People in at DE levels, they still have to go through training to get them to speed and then put them to sea in an understudy capacity where they will be crucified due shortages. Given they are already qualified coming through the door. Buy out option will be cheap so unless you can pay them , make their conditions acceptable,they'll walk

Retention at all levels is the key.

[northie]

What is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. We got some fine techs for all branches in days of yore. Many went on to Lt.Cdr rank. When the Apprentice School was shut where did techs come from then. Is there still a School of catering? DE was usually an emergency measure and it requires a serious New Entry training program of at least 9 weeks.

The school of buns is still on the go up in mckee but they are very limited in how many they can teach on a given year it seems - classroom size being the issue according to those in the know.

A recent course in the past few years had nearly 2/3 of places allocated to the NS, whilst one of the brigdes got a single spot. DF has aligned itself to QQI as regards standards in catering so off the top of my head, the basic course is a fair bit longer than 9 weeks.

[na grohmiti]

What is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. We got some fine techs for all branches in days of yore. Many went on to Lt.Cdr rank. When the Apprentice School was shut where did techs come from then. Is there still a School of catering? DE was usually an emergency measure and it requires a serious New Entry training program of at least 9 weeks.

Apprentices are no longer directly recruited but enlisted may apply to be trained as technicians in a number of specific fields. Block release still done in civvy schools. The Air Corps does recruit apprentices directly but unlike the old days they complete 7 months military training before picking up the books.
Interestingly, and I am open to correction, I understand the NS is to phase out EAs to be replaced by electrical engineers. Now it used to be that engineers were officers and artificers were junior and senior ratings. Will what was the EA now become another engineering officer?

[Truck Driver]

What is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. ....

As previously mentioned, with AAS gone, Apprentices are not inducted straight from civvy street anymore
Rather, existing members of the PDF can apply for a slot on the TTS (Technician Training Scheme)
That's how it's done now

[DeV]

What is the position regarding DF apprenticeships. We got some fine techs for all branches in days of yore. Many went on to Lt.Cdr rank. When the Apprentice School was shut where did techs come from then. Is there still a School of catering? DE was usually an emergency measure and it requires a serious New Entry training program of at least 9 weeks.

As others have said. The on the job is normally in a unit or workshops (depending on the TTS can include working for civvies). A substantial amount of the academic phases are in civvy colleges (in conjunction with the relevant corps school depending on the TTS)

Experience lost means what ever input at what ever level there will never be enough people to run the courses get the people where you need them to be....3.5 years to fill the gap between 880 and 1200, which menas the first guys in the door will be within insight of the finishing line before the last batch get of their marks. If you can't retain 50% of each intake beyond their initial contract its a decreasing circle.

People in at DE levels, they still have to go through training to get them to speed and then put them to sea in an understudy capacity where they will be crucified due shortages. Given they are already qualified coming through the door. Buy out option will be cheap so unless you can pay them , make their conditions acceptable,they'll walk

Retention at all levels is the key.

Absolutely. Retention is critical but recruitment is also key

[ancientmariner]

As previously mentioned, with AAS gone, Apprentices are not inducted straight from civvy street anymore
Rather, existing members of the PDF can apply for a slot on the TTS (Technician Training Scheme)
That's how it's done now

The whole self integrity of the PDF has been weakened. If they are in competition with the factory gate or immigration then their attempt to have sufficient personal for all purposes, including selection for a TTS is weakened. The candidates on TTS are not being trained rather they are getting a civilian Tech education and ethical outlook.
The AAS turned out Military Techs for all trades with an establishment in situ to train them. They arrived at their units as trained service personnel as well as being EA, ERA, RRM etc.
A Naval Electrical officer is usually a degree holder. There is little reason why a current EA, or RRM ,couldn't do an Electronics degree. However every ship needs its hands on EA, RRM, ERA. The Electrical officer spans the whole ship and the integrity of systems for all users of electrical power and distribution, EA's, ERA's and RRM's , keep the bits running.

[hptmurphy]

T

here is little reason why a current EA, or RRM ,couldn't do an Electronics degree

More often than not when they do, they are then offered commissions and taken out of the line in the actual repair and running of systems and transferred to management ,which has its merits from a personal development and has pros and cons to the service.

[ancientmariner]

T

More often than not when they do, they are then offered commissions and taken out of the line in the actual repair and running of systems and transferred to management ,which has its merits from a personal development and has pros and cons to the service.

Yes we had them in the NS coming straight from NCO Tech 1 ,mainly, but if a candidate does a degree the conditions after commissioning can be altered at the stroke of a pen to fill an appropriate Technical vacancy. The example of what is possible was ab initio we had an RN CERA commissioned and went on to be a commander Engineer. We continue to paint ourselves into corners instead of solving the problem as we did then in the 1940's.

[DeV]

The current TTS competition is for:

Engr Electricians
Engr Carpenter
Engr Plumber
CIS Technicians
Tpt Heavy Vehicle Mechanic
Ord Armourer
Ord Armament Artificer Instrument
Printing Press

The CIS and Ordnance do a Level 7 degree, the remainder do trade exams (SOLAS, C&G, NVQ etc)

[na grohmiti]

Perhaps the solution then is to create another level just for those with trades or specialist skill, between Officer and Senior rate? It could get around having to promote people away from their trade too.
Was aboard one of the newer vessels lately, Eng Offr was a DE who had learnt the ropes(or spanners) on General cargo and ferries, where you didn't always have a mech to do the dirty work. Very hands on as a result, knew the engine room as if he had built it himself, knew all its strengths and weaknesses. Would not be the type happy to drive a desk between appointments at sea. Couldn't see him being a class officer for a recruit platoon. Could see him instructing mechs and tiffys in training.
We need to keep these people for the long term. Not just a short 5 years till their cadet replacements are trained up.

[DeV]

Perhaps the solution then is to create another level just for those with trades or specialist skill, between Officer and Senior rate? It could get around having to promote people away from their trade too.
Was aboard one of the newer vessels lately, Eng Offr was a DE who had learnt the ropes(or spanners) on General cargo and ferries, where you didn't always have a mech to do the dirty work. Very hands on as a result, knew the engine room as if he had built it himself, knew all its strengths and weaknesses. Would not be the type happy to drive a desk between appointments at sea. Couldn't see him being a class officer for a recruit platoon. Could see him instructing mechs and tiffys in training.
We need to keep these people for the long term. Not just a short 5 years till their cadet replacements are trained up.

What they should be doing to try to keep Senior tech ratings is CFR

They are taking on DE L/EA with a level 6/7 (so I assume that is what the TTS/apprenticeship gives them). DE NS Engineer officers have to have a level 8, cadets/OUT do a level 7.

Keep capable Trained and skilled people in the NS, give them career progression to officer rank, higher salaries, (arguably) better pay and conditions. Good for retention

[ancientmariner]

Perhaps the solution then is to create another level just for those with trades or specialist skill, between Officer and Senior rate? It could get around having to promote people away from their trade too.
Was aboard one of the newer vessels lately, Eng Offr was a DE who had learnt the ropes(or spanners) on General cargo and ferries, where you didn't always have a mech to do the dirty work. Very hands on as a result, knew the engine room as if he had built it himself, knew all its strengths and weaknesses. Would not be the type happy to drive a desk between appointments at sea. Couldn't see him being a class officer for a recruit platoon. Could see him instructing mechs and tiffys in training.
We need to keep these people for the long term. Not just a short 5 years till their cadet replacements are trained up.

You are on the right track. The key thing is to not build a Frankenstein, but leave most appointments within grades open to all those that can do the job or gain the training to do it. Promoting skilled personnel out of their area of expertise is a lose, lose situation. MN engineers usually came up through an apprenticeship in dockyards or heavy engineering works like CIE of yore. They always did the work on normal ships especially tramps. On liner runs they were often assisted by Chinese fitters, very officer like, white boiler suits and ranked 1st, 2nd ,3rd and 4th. but the penalty for that was little downtime for your ship as they did all the compulsory running Survey work while most others were asleep.