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  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Reluctant to get drawn further off topic, but the average PS worker wage is very misleading, as it includes the earnings of the Taoiseach.
    Nobody really leaves the PS....
    I agree. Better off not going doing the rabbit hole of that topic. Leave it to boards.ie or politics.ie!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
      I agree. Better off not going doing the rabbit hole of that topic. Leave it to boards.ie or politics.ie!
      There seems to be some confusion on Strengths in the PDF. If you look at External info on Strengths they estimate the figures as 7340 permanent and 1840 reservists yet the Media are told the Strength is 9000+. Has the proposed Commission on Defence being appointed and who are the external members. Will they be asking for Public views. The similar sized unaligned countries tend to use conscription and most have strong Defence Industries. Critical part of any Defence concept is a certain amount of mutuality , common structures , equipment, and training. Our Commission looks shaky from the start in that all proposals will have to meet a "Green " set of requirements. Enough preconditions leads to a lot of reading materials and confusion. Then the Pay "Review" is not taking place until after the Commission reports.
      The real initial question is agreeing we need a PDF and how big it should be in an All Arms sense taking into account an Island Country. Then pin down a percentage of GDP to maintain the agreed PDF.
      I note no matter how bad things are at home , overseas missions continue with enthusiasm. The NS should likewise, do everything possible to, keep ships at sea.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
        There seems to be some confusion on Strengths in the PDF. If you look at External info on Strengths they estimate the figures as 7340 permanent and 1840 reservists yet the Media are told the Strength is 9000+.
        establishment is 9000 plus

        Has the proposed Commission on Defence being appointed and who are the external members. Will they be asking for Public views.
        No, unknown
        One would assume so

        Our Commission looks shaky from the start in that all proposals will have to meet a "Green " set of requirements
        I would have agreed until I realised we deployed on the EU Chad mission during Green times. I think EU wide, the Greens have moved away from some of their traditional Defence policy

        I note no matter how bad things are at home , overseas missions continue with enthusiasm. The NS should likewise, do everything possible to, keep ships at sea.
        The DF have done the right thing and realised that when they say sorry we can’t people take notice

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
          The real initial question is agreeing we need a PDF and how big it should be in an All Arms sense taking into account an Island Country. Then pin down a percentage of GDP to maintain the agreed PDF.
          IMHO we should steer away from the % GDP and instead once we have agreed that we need a DF and that we are prepared to pay for it that the value be set as a % of total government spending. At present 1.3% of government spending in on defence, the average in the EU is 3.8% and is projected to rise to more than 4.8%. To make things easy our long term target should be 5% of government spending.
          Last edited by EUFighter; 20 September 2020, 15:33.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
            IMHO we should steer away from the % GDP and instead once we have agreed that we need a DF and that we are prepared to pay for it that the value be set as a % of total government spending. At present 1.3% of government spending in on defence, the average in the EU is 3.8% and is projected to rise to more than 4.8%. To make things easy our long term target should be 5% of government spending.
            The perennial difficulty with Defence Budgets and Defence spending is that they are rarely fully spent. In fact getting towards a major ordering of maintenance stores a decision came down to cut all spending by 20%, coupled with suspension of recruitment. In a couple of decades of Defence spending Budgets have varied between 250,000,000 and 1.2 billion. The only consistent portion has been provision for Pay and pensions while capital spending is seasonal and dependent on political good will.

            Over time the PDF, inclusive of all branches, has been redesigned to fit CS view of Defence. Perhaps we need to consider a Defence Tax to buy Boats, planes, and tanks.

            Comment


            • Don't call it that in case you draw the ire of AFRI or the Iona insttute.
              The DF budget just needs to be ringfenced, so it is not the scrapings from the bowl. Hopefully, the discussion coming out is the importance of Defence Spending, and defence as an insurance policy, that must be paid, regardless of other economic circumstances.
              It would be great if DF pay was taken from the defence vote and put into DPER. It gives the outsider an inaccurate view of what Ireland actually spends on Defence.
              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                The perennial difficulty with Defence Budgets and Defence spending is that they are rarely fully spent. In fact getting towards a major ordering of maintenance stores a decision came down to cut all spending by 20%, coupled with suspension of recruitment. In a couple of decades of Defence spending Budgets have varied between 250,000,000 and 1.2 billion. The only consistent portion has been provision for Pay and pensions while capital spending is seasonal and dependent on political good will.

                Over time the PDF, inclusive of all branches, has been redesigned to fit CS view of Defence. Perhaps we need to consider a Defence Tax to buy Boats, planes, and tanks.
                You've got it in one there. There is no political will because there is no public interest for defence. It's seen by all and sundry as being a waste of money better spend on schools and hospitals and that the only defence policy we need is indefinite neutrality because we are privileged to live in a safe part of the world and nothing bad can or will ever happen us (in the public view). Unless there is a serious detonation in the global security situation, I can never see any large scale increase in capital spending that results in us getting new ships, aircraft or tanks (why do we need tanks anyway?). Any investment in defence will always be in pay and pensions unless something drastic changes external to our political system. I'd love to see what the public would think of a defence tax.

                Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                Don't call it that in case you draw the ire of AFRI or the Iona insttute.
                The DF budget just needs to be ringfenced, so it is not the scrapings from the bowl. Hopefully, the discussion coming out is the importance of Defence Spending, and defence as an insurance policy, that must be paid, regardless of other economic circumstances.
                It would be great if DF pay was taken from the defence vote and put into DPER. It gives the outsider an inaccurate view of what Ireland actually spends on Defence.
                Most western militaries include pay and pensions in their defence budgets. It's the largest line item. Ok, maybe it may not make up the same proportion of the defence budget as it does for us but it's always significant.

                If we see transport aircraft, a more capable navy and a revitalised reserve in my time, I'll be happy with that.
                Last edited by Auldsod; 20 September 2020, 21:49.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                  It would be great if DF pay was taken from the defence vote and put into DPER. It gives the outsider an inaccurate view of what Ireland actually spends on Defence.
                  Why would it be when all Departments pay is called out in the Estimates under the appropriate vote?

                  What we really need is “Army Pensions” taken out of the “Defence Group”!
                  Why call it out separately when Gardai for example aren’t

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    What we really need is “Army Pensions” taken out of the “Defence Group”!
                    Why call it out separately when Gardai for example aren’t
                    The ANZAC countries keep Defence Force and Veterans pensions and superannuation separate from the Defence Budget and are paid by both countries respective Social Security departments. Likewise Police Officers and Fire & Emergency personnel come from the public purse either national or in some OZ jurisdictions at state level. Best approach in my view.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      Why would it be when all Departments pay is called out in the Estimates under the appropriate vote?

                      What we really need is “Army Pensions” taken out of the “Defence Group”!
                      Why call it out separately when Gardai for example aren’t
                      As it stands, unless I am missing something, Defence is 2 votes. (In the Finance Vote group).Vote 35 is Army Pensions (Not Naval or Air Corps) Over €254m for 2020. (How are we still spending €229000 on Veterans and spouses of the War of Independence? It was over 100 years ago, we have no citizens over the age of 107). Vote 36 is Defence,(Over €756m) of which €781m is for Actual defence, the remainder which is Wages and Admin.

                      Vote 20 is Garda. (In the Taoiseachs Vote group) €1.7bn, of which €1.1bn is Pay. Pensions are not included on the Pay subhead, they are part of Appropriations in aid, €33m and are accounted for separately (Subhead B).
                      Why is Defence pension bill higher than that of AGS so much that is justifies an entire Vote?

                      Could both votes not be treated equally? I understand Garda is different purely in how the GS receive monies from external sources that the DF do not (collection of fines and gun licence fees for example), but otherwise...

                      Worth noting that GS get their vehicles via OPW, Garda make request, vehicles are provided to OPW, garda draw down from OPW catalogue and equip as required. DF does its own procurement, possibly adding to costs somewhat.. Army buys Truck, it is theirs from delivery. Garda vehicle remains OPW until accepted by GS.
                      Last edited by na grohmiti; 21 September 2020, 13:40.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                        As it stands, unless I am missing something, Defence is 2 votes. (In the Finance Vote group).Vote 35 is Army Pensions (Not Naval or Air Corps) Over €254m for 2020. (How are we still spending €229000 on Veterans and spouses of the War of Independence? It was over 100 years ago, we have no citizens over the age of 107). Vote 36 is Defence,(Over €756m) of which €781m is for Actual defence, the remainder which is Wages and Admin.

                        Vote 20 is Garda. (In the Taoiseachs Vote group) €1.7bn, of which €1.1bn is Pay. Pensions are not included on the Pay subhead, they are part of Appropriations in aid, €33m and are accounted for separately (Subhead B).
                        Why is Defence pension bill higher than that of AGS so much that is justifies an entire Vote?

                        Could both votes not be treated equally? I understand Garda is different purely in how the GS receive monies from external sources that the DF do not (collection of fines and gun licence fees for example), but otherwise...

                        Worth noting that GS get their vehicles via OPW, Garda make request, vehicles are provided to OPW, garda draw down from OPW catalogue and equip as required. DF does its own procurement, possibly adding to costs somewhat.. Army buys Truck, it is theirs from delivery. Garda vehicle remains OPW until accepted by GS.
                        Just to clarify, the Defence Vote 2019 was 758m, of which 529m was for pay of 10,500 personnel inclusive of 9,500 PDF, the remaining 229m was for guns and bullets plus usual bits and bob to run an Army. In the Global defence strengths table we rate 99th out of 138 considered.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by A/TEL View Post
                          Severe shortage at LS rank too.

                          The ship cannot sail without an NCO.

                          ABs leaving to do any type of work

                          POs retire after 21 years (old contract) to work part time in other jobs locally.

                          Coast Guard is still an option but based in Dublin, Valentia and Malin.

                          Approx 10 15 ex NS currently working in the Coastguard CRS


                          The solution is simple, make seagoing financially attractive through an large increase in PDA.

                          At least €50 a day into the hand makes that a reality.

                          When you consider that a Private soldier earns €83 a day in Portlaoise Prison security duty, it should be equal to that for a sailor at sea.
                          Very simple solution if PDA was made tax free.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                            Very simple solution if PDA was made tax free.
                            Looking at payments and pensions to Gardai there is a frightening gap between a garda and a person of Sergeant rank of about 9000 Euro a year. It is all well laid out in an outline, published by ARCO on New Pensions Cap 2020 for those that work in a public Service job after leaving the PDF or the Gardai. I've had no pension adjustment in 10 years other than a 12.5% cut under FEMPI now restored in 2020. In that time certain elements including TD's and Gardai got pay and pension increases.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                              Looking at payments and pensions to Gardai there is a frightening gap between a garda and a person of Sergeant rank of about 9000 Euro a year. It is all well laid out in an outline, published by ARCO on New Pensions Cap 2020 for those that work in a public Service job after leaving the PDF or the Gardai. I've had no pension adjustment in 10 years other than a 12.5% cut under FEMPI now restored in 2020. In that time certain elements including TD's and Gardai got pay and pension increases.
                              Garda rep groups shout louder, and have no fear of the nuclear option. While the "Blue Flu" may have caused certain negative publicity, it delivered, and recent threats of a repeat were answered quickly. TDs are benefactors of "a rising tide that lifts all boats" their wages being tied to that of higher level civil servants.
                              While the Gross pay of a Sgt may be higher than a garda at top rate at grade, the Sgt is entitled to less allowances than a garda, and in many cases on promotion ends up with less than when they were a Garda. The last FEMPI restoration is due next week I believe, however inflation happened in the meantime, so you are still ending up with less than you should have been getting had FEMPI not happened. Todays € does not have the same buying power that it had in 2009, your shopping basket costs 5.7% more.
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                                You've got it in one there.

                                If we see transport aircraft, a more capable navy and a revitalised reserve in my time, I'll be happy with that.
                                If we want a purposeful Navy- going by Global Strengths Tables- we need to aspire to the following Fleet ship types. Frigate X 1, Corvette X 1, Logistics X 1, OPV 90 X 5, MCM adaptable x 3, SSK x 3, and 30m Training Craft X 3 , plus a second port base, and a port of refuge on west coast maybe Killybegs. Not all would be new builds. Coupled with all of that an MOU with friendly countries for training and exercises.

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