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  1. #476
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I see we now have a new direct entry seaman officer in the Naval Service, in the rank of Sub-Lieutenant , aboard the JJ. The key to retention of DE's is to concentrate on sub-specialisation training so that they can "Fit-in" to the myriad requirements of a PDF officer, from looking after your ratings, duties , accounts, guards, ceremonials, discipline, weapon training, naval practices etc., etc. Mentoring alone aboard ship may not work for other appointments or duties.
    They are on a 3 year short service commission (after 18 months they can apply for a standard commission without limitation of time) as a S/Lt (same rank as a graduate NS cadet attending NMCI).

    Read this bit:
    Short Service Pay, as follows, will be paid to Officers who have not applied for or been offered a commission without limitation as to time within the period time served during their short term Commission. Officers will be entitled to a once-off payment of Short Service Pay, depending on the total consecutive period served as follows:
    1. €6,349.00 on completion of 1st year of service or
    2. €6,348.00 on completion of 2nd year of service * or
    3. €12,697.00 on completion of 3rd year of service *
    *Short service pay for years 2 and 3 will not be paid if the Officer has applied for and has been offered, a commission without limitation as to time.
    Short Service Pay, which is non-pensionable, is subject to income tax, PRSI, USC and ASC (see Note 4 in Annex A) in the normal way.
    Ie DoD is incentiving people to come in for 3 years and leave..... but not encouraging financially them to stay after that is up

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  3. #477
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    It does get watchkeeping offices back on ships in the short term, and potentially can get ships back at sea again.
    I don't see the NS offering a similar scheme to the Air Corps to get its recently departed officers back in uniform.
    Many top rated officers have left in recent years, mostly at LtCdr rank, with at least 2 ships commands under their belt.
    Or is the shortage in AC different to NS?
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  4. #478
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    The recommissioning is open to all former PDF officers. Maybe the AC is just targeting them?

  5. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    I wouldn't have bothered..Its a very sterile book thick with political input and very little input from those on the ground appart for a few officers and one NCO, Like Harveys other book, tough going in places with detail that has been well reported else where.
    Read it...your assessment was 100% accurate. Bit disappointed to be honest.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  7. #480
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    They are on a 3 year short service commission (after 18 months they can apply for a standard commission without limitation of time) as a S/Lt (same rank as a graduate NS cadet attending NMCI).

    Read this bit:

    Ie DoD is incentiving people to come in for 3 years and leave..... but not encouraging financially them to stay after that is up
    Certainly looks like that's what they want to happen. Looks like the programme is directed towards filling temporary gaps and not bring in career officers.

    Possibly assumes that the NS would eventually meet the shortfall with officers who have come up through the training pipeline the 'right way' - through a cadet class.

    I'd imagine there still is service skepticism of officers who haven't come up through the rigour of a cadet class.

    @ancientmariner's list details this viewpoint succinctly.

    Has a DE officer ever commanded an NS ship?

  8. #481
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    Many have. A previous 2/ic naval service was a DE.
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  9. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Certainly looks like that's what they want to happen. Looks like the programme is directed towards filling temporary gaps and not bring in career officers.

    Possibly assumes that the NS would eventually meet the shortfall with officers who have come up through the training pipeline the 'right way' - through a cadet class.

    I'd imagine there still is service skepticism of officers who haven't come up through the rigour of a cadet class.

    @ancientmariner's list details this viewpoint succinctly.

    Has a DE officer ever commanded an NS ship?
    Yes I did, Four for full appointment and one commissioning in Harwich and one relief. The problem with DE's is attitudes within the Service and giving them the tools to do the job seamlessly as I outlined in an earlier post. Another critical problem is fitting in DE officers on the seniority scale, however that has lessened with the introduction of promotion on Merit.

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  11. #483
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    The problem with DE's is attitudes within the Service and giving them the tools to do the job seamlessly as I outlined in an earlier post
    While the secondary appointments are complimentary to the job, they are in fact secondary roles that many could actually be outsourced to senior NCOs, take a PO gunner for example , he would have a greater competency in the weapons aboard ship than the gunnery officer, things like account holding could be run by a PO writer .

    It shouldn't stop direct entries as the scondary tasks can be learned on the job once the primary qualifications have been 'navalized' Have to say I enjoyed working with DE officers as they often had a very refreshing attitude towards command while being absolutely professional in their approach.

    As for officers re enlisting, friend of mine went back into the air corps in his previous rank still young enough to be very effective , but I wonder in terms of the Naval Service how many would re enlist given how limited command opportunities actually are, wouldn't really fancy being a 50 some Lt. watch keeper.
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  12. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    While the secondary appointments are complimentary to the job, they are in fact secondary roles that many could actually be outsourced to senior NCOs, take a PO gunner for example , he would have a greater competency in the weapons aboard ship than the gunnery officer, things like account holding could be run by a PO writer .

    It shouldn't stop direct entries as the scondary tasks can be learned on the job once the primary qualifications have been 'navalized' Have to say I enjoyed working with DE officers as they often had a very refreshing attitude towards command while being absolutely professional in their approach.

    As for officers re enlisting, friend of mine went back into the air corps in his previous rank still young enough to be very effective , but I wonder in terms of the Naval Service how many would re enlist given how limited command opportunities actually are, wouldn't really fancy being a 50 some Lt. watch keeper.
    You make reasonable points and I believe NCO's should mentor and advise junior officers. Well said.

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  14. #485
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    While the secondary appointments are complimentary to the job, they are in fact secondary roles that many could actually be outsourced to senior NCOs, take a PO gunner for example , he would have a greater competency in the weapons aboard ship than the gunnery officer, things like account holding could be run by a PO writer .

    It shouldn't stop direct entries as the scondary tasks can be learned on the job once the primary qualifications have been 'navalized' Have to say I enjoyed working with DE officers as they often had a very refreshing attitude towards command while being absolutely professional in their approach.

    As for officers re enlisting, friend of mine went back into the air corps in his previous rank still young enough to be very effective , but I wonder in terms of the Naval Service how many would re enlist given how limited command opportunities actually are, wouldn't really fancy being a 50 some Lt. watch keeper.
    Writers have gone the way of the dinosaurs. There is one Writer left in the entire Navy now, a CPO.

    The SPO operates the majority of accounts onboard ship now.

    PO/Mech and C/ERA the same for the engineering account.

    The holder does very little to be honest, the operator is the SME when it comes to accounts.

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  16. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    The holder does very little to be honest
    Don't tell him/her that

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  18. #487
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    A/TEL, thanks for insight but do you know why the holder does very little, could it not be handed over in full to the operator.

  19. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    A/TEL, thanks for insight but do you know why the holder does very little, could it not be handed over in full to the operator.
    Generally speaking (there are exceptions) accounts are held by officers and operated by NCOs.

    It is a control factor. Some elements of transactions for some inventory cannot be completed without the account holder approval.

    Some accounts are held by NCOs but they get an allowance for the extra responsibility.

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  21. #489
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    And I assume the holder is the one responsible (if someone happens)?

  22. #490
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    Writers have gone the way of the dinosaurs. There is one Writer left in the entire Navy now, a CPO.

    The SPO operates the majority of accounts onboard ship now.

    PO/Mech and C/ERA the same for the engineering account.

    The holder does very little to be honest, the operator is the SME when it comes to accounts.
    So is admin now done at a divisional level?... if so the requirement for the amount of officers could be reduced ?

    At one point there were 170 serving officers from a establishment of 1000 persons all ranks , averaging one in seven to be an officer, but when you look back at the amount of serving officer appointments pership at the time , easy to see why

    At one point in 1988 Eithne had 13 officers out of a crew of 72 persons... making in almost 1 in 5 was an officer..but you could never find them when it came to de ammunitioning or rationing
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  23. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    So is admin now done at a divisional level?... if so the requirement for the amount of officers could be reduced ?

    At one point there were 170 serving officers from a establishment of 1000 persons all ranks , averaging one in seven to be an officer, but when you look back at the amount of serving officer appointments pership at the time , easy to see why

    At one point in 1988 Eithne had 13 officers out of a crew of 72 persons... making in almost 1 in 5 was an officer..but you could never find them when it came to de ammunitioning or rationing
    P31 had an Establishment for 6 officers and generally had 2 Officers under Training (OUT). Going to USA she had 12 officers on board including the Flag Officer and Secretary. In FLY days there would be up to 4 Aer Corps officers on board, but in general never more than CS4 plus OUT's. Certainly NCO's ran the accounts and officers had to sanitise the occasional SNAFU like finding 10 pairs of binoculars in the account and only 5 on board. Damaged ones were being replaced but not written off to Store. Or the SNCO that took base store losses on to his books to help out an audit. You could hardly sleep at night wondering what next. All good fun.

  24. #492
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    When I joined her in 1988

    She had OC, XO, Guns , Nav, Coms, MEO, EO,Junior Engineer and Supplies, that was 9!
    Within 6 months she had another two S/Lts as understudies to Nav and Gun, 11.....plus an under study EO and Understudy engineer...13.... and when the A/C turned up that as you said added at least 4 more.

    Always troubled me when a perfectly good ships captain was made XO after he had skippered another ship as opposed to a lead into his own command.
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  25. #493
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    Did all of that benefit the operation the ship was on or just play up to the captain

  26. #494
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    Did all that heavy top cover undermine the Naval service or secure its future

  27. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    Did all of that benefit the operation the ship was on or just play up to the captain
    Different times, different systems. We were still pretty lean man ed then compared to other warships of the same size. Most frigates of the day would have had a crew of over 100, the Leander for example, had a crew of 220 and only 110m compared to eithnes 80m.
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  29. #496
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Different times, different systems. We were still pretty lean man ed then compared to other warships of the same size. Most frigates of the day would have had a crew of over 100, the Leander for example, had a crew of 220 and only 110m compared to eithnes 80m.
    I think the most important thing to be remembered about Eithne from 85 to 90 , was it was still a very steep learning curve in how to operate a ship of that size and complexity and within 10 years her compliment was reduced to approx 50 people and she still ran very efficiently.

    it didn't set any precedents in manning levels but it did highlight the flexibility of a larger vessel than the standard PVs of the time and how ships of a reasonable capacity could be operated without huge increases n manning levels. Bear in mind that a current OPV still operates with the same manning levels as a P20/21 Class despite being considerably larger and more capable.
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  31. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    I think the most important thing to be remembered about Eithne from 85 to 90 , was it was still a very steep learning curve in how to operate a ship of that size and complexity and within 10 years her compliment was reduced to approx 50 people and she still ran very efficiently.

    it didn't set any precedents in manning levels but it did highlight the flexibility of a larger vessel than the standard PVs of the time and how ships of a reasonable capacity could be operated without huge increases n manning levels. Bear in mind that a current OPV still operates with the same manning levels as a P20/21 Class despite being considerably larger and more capable.
    t

    In smaller navies, it is necessary for the operational ships to take trainees of all ranks on board, including officers and specialists. Mentoring and on-the-job training has always been a big part of maritime and Naval training. You all have heard of a crew member being described as a "First Tripper" that meant he /she required minding and further training. CS4 lays down the crew and expediency and service requirements sets the numbers actually carried.

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  33. #498
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    t

    In smaller navies, it is necessary for the operational ships to take trainees of all ranks on board, including officers and specialists. Mentoring and on-the-job training has always been a big part of maritime and Naval training. You all have heard of a crew member being described as a "First Tripper" that meant he /she required minding and further training. CS4 lays down the crew and expediency and service requirements sets the numbers actually carried.
    Never heard the term first tripper used..... more used to the term 'Red Arse'
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  34. #499
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    So is admin now done at a divisional level?... if so the requirement for the amount of officers could be reduced ?

    At one point there were 170 serving officers from a establishment of 1000 persons all ranks , averaging one in seven to be an officer, but when you look back at the amount of serving officer appointments pership at the time , easy to see why

    At one point in 1988 Eithne had 13 officers out of a crew of 72 persons... making in almost 1 in 5 was an officer..but you could never find them when it came to de ammunitioning or rationing

    The Divisional system has been slightly diluted since the Re-Org into Units and Commands in the 2000s.

    The Writers vacancies have been absorbed into the Executive Branch (Seamans) so the majority of vacancies in the Personnel Management Section are now filled by Seamen. Same to be said of Drivers. The daily admin is done by units now with PMS responsible for the major admin.


    Its a bit dysfunctional now with Comms, Diving etc now Sub-Units of Shore Operations Unit which itself is in Naval Operations Command.

    4 Commands: Ops Command, Support Command, Naval College, Naval Headquarters each with its own units contained within (bar NHQ)

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  36. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    The Divisional system has been slightly diluted since the Re-Org into Units and Commands in the 2000s.

    The Writers vacancies have been absorbed into the Executive Branch (Seamans) so the majority of vacancies in the Personnel Management Section are now filled by Seamen. Same to be said of Drivers. The daily admin is done by units now with PMS responsible for the major admin.


    Its a bit dysfunctional now with Comms, Diving etc now Sub-Units of Shore Operations Unit which itself is in Naval Operations Command.

    4 Commands: Ops Command, Support Command, Naval College, Naval Headquarters each with its own units contained within (bar NHQ)
    Maybe Support Command needs to be split between Logistics and Administration. Who issues Routine and General Orders, who approves movements, leave , training, promotions, discipline etc. If Seamen rates can fill shore admin. slots how can they rotate to sea without creating disruption in Admin.?

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