manning levels, the future.

[ropebag]

How is it that everyone else in the world can produce Reservists who can do these jobs?

We have reservists who work on T45 air warfare destroyersw have reservists who work on, and with the take from, RC-135 Rivet Joint SIGINT aircraft - which kind of shits on whatever 'sensitive information' the NSR are banned from, we have reservists who maintain Apache helicopters - so why can't Ireland?

[A/TEL]

How is it that everyone else in the world can produce Reservists who can do these jobs?

We have reservists who work on T45 air warfare destroyersw have reservists who work on, and with the take from, RC-135 Rivet Joint SIGINT aircraft - which kind of shits on whatever 'sensitive information' the NSR are banned from, we have reservists who maintain Apache helicopters - so why can't Ireland?

Probably too small of an organisation, plus the employer support found in other countries like US & UK doesn't exist here.

It probably would be possible to train the NSR in certain systems but not all.

The RN allocates its visual signalling to Seaman Specialists where as the NS does a one covers all with a Commop.

[DeV]

Why?. If you introduce clear levevls at which people are exempt and then look at specific occupations , takinging into account that people serve off shore or out of the country, they can be exempted from certain taxes...ask Denis O'bRIEN, HE SEEMS TO HAVE A HANDLE ON IT.

Denis O’Brien doesn’t have a special Denis O’Brien tax rate or anything like that.

I’m sure he pays a lot to consultants and tax lawyer to be “tax efficient”, to use the law to ensure that his investments and accounts result in the minimum possible tax.

If the DF get a special pay award, which they rightly deserve, every union will look for one.

I think there is a slight element of delusion here, while the DF are beyond reproach in what they do, most people actually give a shit. The hearing Claims besmirched that reputation to the point where when you talk to any average Joe Public its always that one thing that comes to mind.

Someone in the NS made the decison to tie up to ships, probably protest in its finest form, we haven't the people , we can't do the job ! Some in the army should take note.... stop trying to do everything you did 10 years ago with more and better paid people.

Your leaders need to stop crucifying their own in order to make their own careers look good.

WE all know the army won't go on strike but it needs to highlight that there are taskings that realistically can't be completed.

Some years ago , the Cav School offloaded the AML fleet by telling the higher ups we don't have the people to train drivers for AMLs any more. It had to be conceded that if we couldn't train drivers , we could no longer operate the vehicle.

You don't have to walk out the gate to highlight how ineffective the machine has become, but the machine has to say no more can we do x,y,z until we have a ,b and c in place.

The dangerous nonsense is that 8500 citizens of this country are actually in danger from the system they work in, apart from the physical danger from partaking in evolutions that were previously carried out with greater safety margins, there are young people living on the bread line because their leaders will not support them, and the psychological and mental toll has yet to be fully appreciated.



other countries do, because military service is take seriously and law makers are prepared to stand behind service persons.... can't is not a valid argument,u

You initially said that “serious industrial action has to be given serious consideration”

You just highlighted what isn’t industrial action and what the DF can (ie can’t) do

[EUFighter]

The problem is not unique to the NS and not to just Ireland it is something that affects almost all western nations, RN gets rid of vessels early as it cannot man them, USAF and USN lack 1000's of pilots and ground crews, Sweden re-introduces conscription as it does not have enough recruits. While pay may be one of the issues it is not the only one and there is no silver bullet that will fix the recruitment and retention issues. There needs to be a ground-up debate about what needs to be done. This should not be limited to just pay but also the role of the DF in a modern western society, what we as a state require them to do and then how we will make that work.

In the last few days of this thread there is a long list of items to change, pay, legislation for RDF, DFHQ, budget control, accommodation...................
It would be a massive task to do something to tackle the issue but it is not impossible, however there is no political pressure to do so. And even in other areas where there is pressure such as HSE, housing, overheating economy etc., little constructive is being done so we should not expect anything different here.

[DeV]

The problem is not unique to the NS and not to just Ireland it is something that affects almost all western nations, RN gets rid of vessels early as it cannot man them, USAF and USN lack 1000's of pilots and ground crews, Sweden re-introduces conscription as it does not have enough recruits. While pay may be one of the issues it is not the only one and there is no silver bullet that will fix the recruitment and retention issues. There needs to be a ground-up debate about what needs to be done. This should not be limited to just pay but also the role of the DF in a modern western society, what we as a state require them to do and then how we will make that work.

In the last few days of this thread there is a long list of items to change, pay, legislation for RDF, DFHQ, budget control, accommodation...................
It would be a massive task to do something to tackle the issue but it is not impossible, however there is no political pressure to do so. And even in other areas where there is pressure such as HSE, housing, overheating economy etc., little constructive is being done so we should not expect anything different here.

You right there is no political need to fix it in comparison to those other issues.

But there are relatively cheap, quick and easy fixes that could be put in place to make life in the DF a bit easier.

Look at the ODF complaints, similar ones coming up repeatedly.

Many to do with administration, the DF is (necessarily) chain of command focused. But the DFRs and paper based (and in some cases IT systems) forms need to be reviewed and improved to make admin’ing the DF easier.

[ancientmariner]

In the last few days of this thread there is a long list of items to change, pay, legislation for RDF, DFHQ, budget control, accommodation...................
It would be a massive task to do something to tackle the issue but it is not impossible, however there is no political pressure to do so. And even in other areas where there is pressure such as HSE, housing, overheating economy etc., little constructive is being done so we should not expect anything different here.

In general due to the amateur nature of Government, and diluted Departmental responsibilities, coupled with lack of planning and funding, plus a laissez faire attitude towards our Island infrastructure, we are bit by bit loosing the capability to run our country and also losing key assets such as housing , medical welfare , social care,and in our case adequate Maritime facilities. We have seasonal and perennial problems -right now Housing, Medical, New Hospital, and Broadband, with Brazilian Beef in the offing. In the PDF sense we need a strong Minister for Defence and I would also give him Marine because we are an Island Nation. As regards training for NSR , the initial step is how to operate systems safely and adequately. Not everybody has to know how to fix it, or how it works- like Smart phones or P.C.'s. I remember curtailing night and bad weather boarding until O/S's were more experienced. We could also allow ships to give local 2 day breaks to crew from a port being visited. Doing nothing is the least effective option.

[na grohmiti]

Some years ago a solution to address work life balance was to make sure all ships had internet access at all times during patrol. This way at least those away from home could keep in contact with home and not rely on being close enough to shore for a phone signal.

[hptmurphy]

It's fair enough being able to take the time off but the problem is when the next round of promotions come up on work or you find yourself redundant. It's more nuanced than just making laws unforunately.

Decisions, decisions, this is where the reserve falls flat on its face everytime , through no fault of its own in most cases so it begs the question do we need a two tier reserve of those who can commit regardless and those who offer limited commitment.

Another obstacle would be allowing access to sensitive information. The NSR would not be granted this.

I disagree that sensitive information would be an issue as there are plenty with the RDF especially CIS who already have access to information that is deemed to be sensitive.

[Bravo20]

Decisions, decisions, this is where the reserve falls flat on its face everytime , through no fault of its own in most cases so it begs the question do we need a two tier reserve of those who can commit regardless and those who offer limited commitment.

That was part of the idea behind the integrated reserve back in the day and hence it had a higher grat.

While I have always been an advocate of making more use of the reserve I don't think it is the solution the current manning crisis.

[hptmurphy]

Denis O’Brien doesn’t have a special Denis O’Brien tax rate or anything like that.

I’m sure he pays a lot to consultants and tax lawyer to be “tax efficient”, to use the law to ensure that his investments and accounts result in the minimum possible tax

I chose him as an example to highlight that where the is a will... there is a way.

If the DF get a special pay award, which they rightly deserve, every union will look for one.

Not the case, you have to compare like with like . The DF have not gotten a fraction of the restoration or increases that other areas have including nurses and AGS so by default are outside the loop and have been treated as a separate entity, ergo any specially allowances could be made around their situation because they are different.

You initially said that “serious industrial action has to be given serious consideration”

You just highlighted what isn’t industrial action and what the DF can (ie can’t) do

Again its relevant, serious industrial action by the DF is relative to what they can do. The government thought up to last week that Support Services in the HSE were non essential until 10,000 of them took a one day action and then found out how essential they were.

If people in the DF, decision makers, were to pull what they actually couldn't cover, say the garden National Day of Comemoration GoH is twenty people short and some asks why? we just haven't the bods and then gives a breakdown of where the other 8,480 people actually are on the day and the GoH was pulled because of that,, its a bit like tying up ships, until you actually do it it no one outside the organization sees how bad it actually is. ' No Sir' we haven't 500 man hours to put in to Port Laoise prison this month as they've all gone on their ticket'.......Your not striking. But you are now highlight that you can't do without resources which is almost a work to rule, which in itself is an industrial action.

[DeV]

I chose him as an example to highlight that where the is a will... there is a way.

Not the case, you have to compare like with like . The DF have not gotten a fraction of the restoration or increases that other areas have including nurses and AGS so by default are outside the loop and have been treated as a separate entity, ergo any specially allowances could be made around their situation because they are different.



Again its relevant, serious industrial action by the DF is relative to what they can do. The government thought up to last week that Support Services in the HSE were non essential until 10,000 of them took a one day action and then found out how essential they were.

If people in the DF, decision makers, were to pull what they actually couldn't cover, say the garden National Day of Comemoration GoH is twenty people short and some asks why? we just haven't the bods and then gives a breakdown of where the other 8,480 people actually are on the day and the GoH was pulled because of that,, its a bit like tying up ships, until you actually do it it no one outside the organization sees how bad it actually is. ' No Sir' we haven't 500 man hours to put in to Port Laoise prison this month as they've all gone on their ticket'.......Your not striking. But you are now highlight that you can't do without resources which is almost a work to rule, which in itself is an industrial action.

That as you say yourself isn’t striking, nor is it a work to rule.... that is reality! It you don’t have the resources to do the job you can’t do it.

The nature of the DF is that people can be detailed 24/7/365 which makes it a special case. Imho It’s a balancing act.

How come the DF haven’t received the same pay Restoration?

[batterysgt]

If they haven't the skills then it is our fault. Given that in times of yore crews were trained to man 100's of corvettes and 151 River Class Frigates during WW11. They mostly came from Banks, shops , farms, and schools. The NSR on call up are captive, for God's sake, train them in all branches and get them sailing within crews and continue with ON THE JOB Training. No first tripper on cruise boats has an idea but by the end of a week they are starting up, cleaning weed traps, docking, and following charts safely. Give the NSR a 3 month course and they could operate on their own with Departmental mentors for another few months.

How many do you think can give 3 months of there time to successfully complete this course. I don't know of a single RDF person who could.

[hptmurphy]

That was part of the idea behind the integrated reserve back in the day and hence it had a higher grat.

While I have always been an advocate of making more use of the reserve I don't think it is the solution the current manning crisis.

I agree 100% as if you are using your reserve to carry out mundane tasks or filling the blanks in day to day taskings you are allowing your establishment to slip and may not recover them. Reservists by the nature of the role seem to be more transient and no long term plans can be made around their integration due to the fact of what they are reservists.

How come the DF haven’t received the same pay Restoration?

Some of the new starts came in on lower terms and conditions like the teachers , there fore they may never reach pay parity add on the loss of allowances, and the increases in stealth taxes such as USC and Pension levy

[ancientmariner]

I agree 100% as if you are using your reserve to carry out mundane tasks or filling the blanks in day to day taskings you are allowing your establishment to slip and may not recover them. Reservists by the nature of the role seem to be more transient and no long term plans can be made around their integration due to the fact of what they are reservists.



Some of the new starts came in on lower terms and conditions like the teachers , there fore they may never reach pay parity add on the loss of allowances, and the increases in stealth taxes such as USC and Pension levy

Indeed reservists are a pool from which to select replacements but mainly to build up their abilities and interchangeability with PDF members. It is incumbent therefore to train such personnel when they are available. They should be selected within mission tasks and operation orders, otherwise they will remain a professional embarrassment.
In 2011 pay was redesigned to assist in fiscal recovery. Service men in uniform, since then, have lost about 50% of a years pay, with a continuing deduction to this day. After 8 years+ this deduction should stop and a proportion should be paid back on pension or retirement.
Perhaps we need to look at National service between school and 3rd level , holding some later on reserve.

[ancientmariner]

Indeed reservists are a pool from which to select replacements but mainly to build up their abilities and interchangeability with PDF members. It is incumbent therefore to train such personnel when they are available. They should be selected within mission tasks and operation orders, otherwise they will remain a professional embarrassment.
In 2011 pay was redesigned to assist in fiscal recovery. Service men in uniform, since then, have lost about 50% of a years pay, with a continuing deduction to this day. After 8 years+ this deduction should stop and a proportion should be paid back on pension or retirement.
Perhaps we need to look at National service between school and 3rd level , holding some later on reserve.

It seems to me that a detailed review of Retention and recruitment in the Defence Forces needs to be undertaken . It should begin by setting overall strength to be achieved and its distribution among the services. We then need to look at equipment needs in all services with a view to acquiring STEM skills to operate systems. We should be looking at least 20 years ahead. We need to set levels of recruitment of Females, say 15%, and new Irish citizens at 10%. The staffs need to establish a Harmony running Survey to ensure that even individual personnel are not burdened unfairly away from family. There must not be added cost or loss of normal expected rights as to where one can live when not on duty. The service Ratio in the UK is 8:3:3. however as an initial position we could look at 10:2:2. which would give 1357 Navy and 1357 Air corps and 6786 Army.
We need to zero in on specialist skills that take years of training and try elements of direct entry and /or finding it in the Reserve.