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  • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
    Leo, Paul and DoD effectively punishing the entire Naval Service in response to the only member of general equivalent rank with the Moral Courage and Leadership to do what was required.

    This will now increase the speed of the exodus of personnel from the Naval Service because any hope of additional income from overseas allowances is effectively gone.
    Given that the EU mission has been stood down anyway and seems unlikely to start up again given Italy's continued position isn't it more just a statement of fact? I mean it's not like there were active plans for such a deployment underway.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
      Given that the EU mission has been stood down anyway and seems unlikely to start up again given Italy's continued position isn't it more just a statement of fact? I mean it's not like there were active plans for such a deployment underway.
      True, but the cynic in me reads into the wording of “not being able to patrol the Med”.

      This also seems to rule out UNIFIL MTF and EU ATALANTA.

      Time will tell if Naval Servive Personnel applying for land based Overseas missions will be told no “because of crew shortages”


      I really hope for the Defence Forces sake i’m proven very wrong
      Last edited by TangoSierra; 9 July 2019, 18:46.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
        True, but the cynic in me reads into the wording of “not being able to patrol the Med”.

        This also seems to rule out UNIFIL MTF and EU ATALANTA.

        Time will tell if Naval Servive Personnel applying for land based Overseas missions will be told no “because of crew shortages”


        I really hope for the Defence Forces sake i’m proven very wrong
        We were able to send Eithne to the US many a time back when we only had a 7 ship fleet. The ships crew was greatly boosted with those in the NS who would not normally be seagoing. Yet we still managed to patrol the EEZ with smaller ships. Similarly we were able to do regular UNIFIL resupply missions, normally of much longer duration than normal patrols. The work at home continued, and ships wen into regular refit as normal.
        How come suddenly we are unable to do anything except the local patrol duties, with 5 out of 9 Operational ships?
        Are the DoD punishing the NS for exposing their incompetence?
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
          True, but the cynic in me reads into the wording of “not being able to patrol the Med”.

          This also seems to rule out UNIFIL MTF and EU ATALANTA.

          Time will tell if Naval Servive Personnel applying for land based Overseas missions will be told no “because of crew shortages”


          I really hope for the Defence Forces sake i’m proven very wrong
          I wouldn’t read into it.... they thought we had 7 ships the other day.... probably still think PONTUS is going on

          Edit - I think I saw a pic from the AC of 11 of their members in Lebanon. The AC is critically short of personnel. That’s over 1% of their strength.


          Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
          We were able to send Eithne to the US many a time back when we only had a 7 ship fleet. The ships crew was greatly boosted with those in the NS who would not normally be seagoing. Yet we still managed to patrol the EEZ with smaller ships. Similarly we were able to do regular UNIFIL resupply missions, normally of much longer duration than normal patrols. The work at home continued, and ships wen into regular refit as normal.
          How come suddenly we are unable to do anything except the local patrol duties, with 5 out of 9 Operational ships?
          Are the DoD punishing the NS for exposing their incompetence?
          AFAIK this was an operational decision by FOCNS.

          DoD tried to prevent PONTUS in the first place after it was announced





          Don’t forget also in the next few months there could be a requirement to have large numbers of troops deployed and increased fishery protection duties ..... BREXIT
          Last edited by DeV; 9 July 2019, 22:04.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            I wouldn’t read into it.... they thought we had 7 ships the other day.... probably still think PONTUS is going on



            AFAIK this was an operational decision by FOCNS.

            DoD tried to prevent PONTUS in the first place after it was announced





            Don’t forget also in the next few months there could be a requirement to have large numbers of troops deployed and increased fishery protection duties ..... BREXIT
            There is a lot of unanalysed statements being made which lack support for the Naval Service and may be demoralising some, including those that would like to join our Branch of the PDF. In days of yore we sent one ship twice to Antwerp to collect weapons and ammunition for the Congo, with one other ship manned to do Fishery Patrols. The first trip to America was done with P31 on task and remainder deployed and did leave and maintenance as normal. To say we cannot support International obligations with 5+1 ( Maintenance ) is short on solidarity and unworthy of those who want to serve.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
              There is a lot of unanalysed statements being made which lack support for the Naval Service and may be demoralising some, including those that would like to join our Branch of the PDF. In days of yore we sent one ship twice to Antwerp to collect weapons and ammunition for the Congo, with one other ship manned to do Fishery Patrols. The first trip to America was done with P31 on task and remainder deployed and did leave and maintenance as normal. To say we cannot support International obligations with 5+1 ( Maintenance ) is short on solidarity and unworthy of those who want to serve.
              Not by me!!!

              An Taoiseach (the Minister) though we had 7 ships - not the NS
              He also though we were looking a ship to the Med - that mission is over

              It would appear from the circular from FOCNS that was on Twitter that it was FOCNS’s decision - IMHO he has made 1000% the correct decision

              DoD attempted to block Op PONTUS after An Taoiseach had announced it on RTE News after an EU meeting.

              The DF could be very important in a few months

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                Not by me!!!

                An Taoiseach (the Minister) though we had 7 ships - not the NS
                He also though we were looking a ship to the Med - that mission is over

                It would appear from the circular from FOCNS that was on Twitter that it was FOCNS’s decision - IMHO he has made 1000% the correct decision

                DoD attempted to block Op PONTUS after An Taoiseach had announced it on RTE News after an EU meeting.

                The DF could be very important in a few months
                Indeed not you. Unfortunately it is the presumptive commanders of the Defence Forces in the CS and the Dail. Command and operational development of the PDF is a task of the uniformed branch. It should include responding to requests for elements to visit or engage with friendly forces or countries. Defence Budgets in totality should be usable for such projects. It is only fuel and port costs.

                Comment




                • This is significant
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    I see that this bloke Kehoe has been in his role for 8 years. He must really be quite the house trained hamster by the civil service after that period of time.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                      I see that this bloke Kehoe has been in his role for 8 years. He must really be quite the house trained hamster by the civil service after that period of time.
                      Exactly ..... it’s DoD that’s the problem .... along with a lack of political will to challenge them

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        Exactly ..... it’s DoD that’s the problem .... along with a lack of political will to challenge them
                        With less active vessels in service and with just 2 air surveillance assets the political will may challenge them not to mention the environmental and financial cost to Ireland and the food security issue to Europe.

                        FAO report / Fish Dependence Day: Oceans heavily overfished, millions of people depend on it / EU relies on seafood imports for the rest of the year


                        Illegal Chinese fishing vessels are already fishing further up the Atlantic and will go where they think there is a vacuum that they can exploit.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                          It should be significant but I hardly doubt it will have impact. The event was last week, the Taoiseach has rowed in with Kehoe and the ships have been tied up....... summer break for the Dail is in the offing.. move along , nothing to see. The Maria Bailey thing is not finished yet and you expect Kehoe to fall? I'd bet money this is the last of it.

                          But what is constantly overlooked is that FOCNS stuck it to the minister, pushed the doomsday button and got away with it, while the Naval Service is loosing people, the OC has made the Government look like idiots by making a command decision, something no other officer in the DF has had the balls to do.

                          While it may not look like a victory a Naval Officer has stood up to the politicians and said'no more' !

                          While in the 70s the ships were falling apart and replacements were required and the decision to scrap/ tie them up made economical sense, here we are with two perfectly functional ships tied up because we have no effective minister for defence and those in the service are leaving in droves because the country.. not the government don't care enough to do something about it.....remeber in the Naval Service we are talking about around 1000 people.

                          Yes I'm deliberately overlooking the rest of the DF because the jobs don't equate and there are two different battles to be fought, sizeable state assets are now dormant because of results to date and only one person has had the bollocks to put his career in the path of a politician.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                          • Kehoe's mistake was to take on the IT and the Examiner and label them as fake news.

                            They will continue to poke the bear as a result.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                              It should be significant but I hardly doubt it will have impact. The event was last week, the Taoiseach has rowed in with Kehoe and the ships have been tied up....... summer break for the Dail is in the offing.. move along , nothing to see. The Maria Bailey thing is not finished yet and you expect Kehoe to fall? I'd bet money this is the last of it.

                              But what is constantly overlooked is that FOCNS stuck it to the minister, pushed the doomsday button and got away with it, while the Naval Service is loosing people, the OC has made the Government look like idiots by making a command decision, something no other officer in the DF has had the balls to do.

                              While it may not look like a victory a Naval Officer has stood up to the politicians and said'no more' !

                              While in the 70s the ships were falling apart and replacements were required and the decision to scrap/ tie them up made economical sense, here we are with two perfectly functional ships tied up because we have no effective minister for defence and those in the service are leaving in droves because the country.. not the government don't care enough to do something about it.....remeber in the Naval Service we are talking about around 1000 people.

                              Yes I'm deliberately overlooking the rest of the DF because the jobs don't equate and there are two different battles to be fought, sizeable state assets are now dormant because of results to date and only one person has had the bollocks to put his career in the path of a politician.
                              Disagree on some points

                              A GOC AC pulled 24/7 ATC. That fact came out after the IRCG helicopter crash. In no way did it contribute to the accident or have stopped it happening. It was Withdrawal of a necessary service. It went public in the aftermath but was obviously overshadowed and rightly so.

                              Then there was the delay mainly due to DoD in deploying helos to Donegal.



                              The Government could change to a SF/PBP alliance tomorrow and nothing would change in 2 years time..... the Minister hears what the DoD wants him to hear

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                Disagree on some points

                                A GOC AC pulled 24/7 ATC. That fact came out after the IRCG helicopter crash. In no way did it contribute to the accident or have stopped it happening. It was Withdrawal of a necessary service. It went public in the aftermath but was obviously overshadowed and rightly so.

                                Then there was the delay mainly due to DoD in deploying helos to Donegal.



                                The Government could change to a SF/PBP alliance tomorrow and nothing would change in 2 years time..... the Minister hears what the DoD wants him to hear
                                What must STOP is any attempt to continue micromanaging Military/Naval assets. The decision on deployments, how many and where is a matter for the Commanding Officers . Need, appropriateness, urgency, are reasons to send a ship on HADR , especially when a couple of ships plus Marpats , coupled with surface and air AIS will keep the coast covered in exigent scenarios. The only task of Government is to approve or NOT.

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