manning levels, the future.

[DeV]

Joining the DF is a vocation however. Going by the tale of woe above, should our sailors not be paid 60k a pop? The conditions definitely need to change but I think the pay beyond a marginal increase is right where it should be for an AB.

It is and that is due to some none monetary perks. Be it a hard challenging job, service to the State, fighting drug importation, sports Wednesdays, generous leave....... however it needs to at least at the races with comparable jobs in both public and private sector

[DeV]

Part of the deal has to be personnel (individually and collectively) are fairly and well treated by junior and senior management and by Government.

Be it in administration, in promotion, selection for overseas, postings, payment in a timely manner, duty rosters, cancelling non essential ops as they cannot be met, ensuring there are adequate personnel, that Accomodiation is to a basic standard, that personnel are sufficiently trained and equipped to ensure that they are not put in harms way unnecessarily.



That those who choose the vocation, the “life less ordinary”, that in some cases make the ultimate sacrifice, are not taken advantage of by the State that they have sworn an oath to be faithful to.


It is a vocation and perks are there but they aren’t guaranteed.

Not many jobs in this land where you book time off work, you book a holiday, you have to ask work can you leave the country, have to give work your address while away and that it can be cancelled at any time (including while you are away)

[na grohmiti]

It is and that is due to some none monetary perks. Be it a hard challenging job, service to the State, fighting drug importation, sports Wednesdays, generous leave....... however it needs to at least at the races with comparable jobs in both public and private sector

The customs maritime unit are also on clerical officer pay and do the job of fighting drugs importation. They also get paid an annual allowance for this duty.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j...K7G44vAk2mRrCV

[hptmurphy]

Having to sleep on ships that are alongside

Absolute bollocks...its always been done. the conditions on ships are/were better than the base. The bitch being that the DF moved away from SLI and guys got used to living out. Just because they can't afford to live out, the whinge about the accomadation thats is provided. Its a reality for a lot of people on lower wages that accomadation is not priced as they wish. If you live out in Haulbowline and are not resident in Cobh.. you need a car...more money.....if they add up all they want to be paid for maybe they should reconsider their career path.

24 hour duties

because of the three watch system on ships.. thats the way it is and again always has been

How can anyone compare being a sailor and being a clerical officer

People make choices, public service pay rates were tainted by benchmarking hence the need for allowances..PDA is an allowance a junior public servant serving in the DF gets for days spent at sea!

[DeV]

The customs maritime unit are also on clerical officer pay and do the job of fighting drugs importation. They also get paid an annual allowance for this duty.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j...K7G44vAk2mRrCV

Doesn’t say what the rate is, it is also an annual allowance

I note that “one operation required the staff to remain at sea for a continuous period of nineteen days”


I don’t begrudge them it but it’s apples and oranges.



Compare to PDA
https://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/up...-Allowance.pdf


PDA could be much higher than the Revenue Allowance but the job and T&C’s are extremely different



How do both compare to the private sector

[TangoSierra]

Anecdotal evidence regarding the current rostering practices within the DF are varied and seem to be based on personality/efficiency of those making out the roster. Notice periods of between 24hrs and 1week are common.

While Section 17 of the organisation of working time act only requires the employer to give 24hrs notice of work rostering, it does not make it a "good practice".

Routine duties should be rostered with at least one calendar months notice which is something ICTU are pushing for by way of a change in the OoWT Act.

It causes severe stress placing employees under this uncertainty and inability to plan their lives more than a week in advance.

[EUFighter]

Anecdotal evidence regarding the current rostering practices within the DF are varied and seem to be based on personality/efficiency of those making out the roster. Notice periods of between 24hrs and 1week are common.

While Section 17 of the organisation of working time act only requires the employer to give 24hrs notice of work rostering, it does not make it a "good practice".

Routine duties should be rostered with at least one calendar months notice which is something ICTU are pushing for by way of a change in the OoWT Act.

It causes severe stress placing employees under this uncertainty and inability to plan their lives more than a week in advance.

The OoWT Act does not apply to the Defence Forces:
"3.—(1) Subject to subsection (4), this Act shall not apply to a member of the Garda SÃ*ochána or the Defence Forces."

The big mistake was when the 2008 crisis came the government treated the DF the same as the Civil Service. That was stupid as what is required from a member of the DF is different from other CS members. This has now led to people trying to compare working conditions which has to be the biggest joke ever.Yes, where possible rosters should be done well in advance, training courses planned on a yearly basis etc.

[DeV]

The customs maritime unit are also on clerical officer pay and do the job of fighting drugs importation. They also get paid an annual allowance for this duty.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j...K7G44vAk2mRrCV

I can’t reply to your PM it won’t recognise your username for some reason

Thanks for that

It’s very much apples and oranges but case in point

[na grohmiti]

oddly I can't login via smartphone for the same reason.

[TangoSierra]

The OoWT Act does not apply to the Defence Forces:
"3.—(1) Subject to subsection (4), this Act shall not apply to a member of the Garda SÃ*ochána or the Defence Forces."

The big mistake was when the 2008 crisis came the government treated the DF the same as the Civil Service. That was stupid as what is required from a member of the DF is different from other CS members. This has now led to people trying to compare working conditions which has to be the biggest joke ever.Yes, where possible rosters should be done well in advance, training courses planned on a yearly basis etc.

Not for long.
http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=1523
The DoD have been ordered to include Defence Force members under the act.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...se-471993.html

[ancientmariner]

Not for long.
http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=1523
The DoD have been ordered to include Defence Force members under the act.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...se-471993.html

This scenario really needs clear discussion. The system always allowed " carry over " of up to half the previous years leave. It had often been suggested that unused leave, including " carry over " leave should be accumulated to be granted or paid at the end of service. The big Naval problem is that unlike most parts of the PDF, our units , when at sea, are fully operational, and need trained crew to meet all tasks. Mr. Guinan says rules wouldn't apply in emergencies, so such rules need to be defined for operational ships at sea.

[DeV]

AFAIK the WTD doesn’t allow carryover except in case of illness

[TangoSierra]

ATCP/ATCA operations are somewhat unknown duration activities.

Routine offshore patrolling/fishery protection, guard duties etc are clearly defined duration activities and should come under the WTD.

Doing duties 15days out of 30 (EOD) and other similar situations should be managed out of practice by force of the OoWT Act.

[na grohmiti]

With regards to ATCP/ATCA, a useful guide would be, if the CP/CA that you are providing assistance to, is heading home at 2 am, to be relieved by a new shift, then you should too?
Routine patrolling is carried out by civilian agencies on a 24 hour basis in many states. The civilian maritime world has a long history of 24 hour operating without putting its crews at risk. Offshore standby vessels as an example?
At the end of the day the only reason the DF operate working hours that are against the working time directive is down to one simple cop-out. Staffing. Why have enough staff to cover a 24 hour period in two or three shifts when you can do it with just enough staff for one.
I'm sure everyone who serves or served in the DF can name a colleague who was either killed or seriously injured while making the commute after such a work pattern. The only question is why their job was not held responsible. If they were in any other profession it would be.

[Auldsod]

AFAIK the WTD doesn’t allow carryover except in case of illness

WT can't be carried over but the employer must give you the opportunity to use your 20 days in the same year. The individual has no right to decide that they want to carry over leave.

An employer can also arbitrarily limit the leave for the year to 20 days even if your contact has something higher. Unlikely to be done unless in extreme circumstances due to the impact to employer/employee relations.

Employees actually have far less rights with regard leave than they think. Your employer could essentially tell you that they want you to take your 20 days in two set ten day blocks blocks where they pick the dates and there is nothing legally you can do about it. Of course no company would act like this (that I know of!)

[ancientmariner]

Employees actually have far less rights with regard leave than they think. Your employer could essentially tell you that they want you to take your 20 days in two set ten day blocks blocks where they pick the dates and there is nothing legally you can do about it. Of course no company would act like this (that I know of!)[/QUOTE]

We are all talking in circles. There is no way that personnel in Armed Services can be accurately compared to "employees". The ultimate nature of Armed Service is that when called to use of Arms the task is rarely time limited and those involved can die or be injured to a life changing extent. The duty of those maintaining Armed Services is to make sure that the numbers required to meet obligations are there to cover the tasks and allow for down time including leave and other exigencies.
Civilian ships with 24 hr operations are crewed to a standard of 4hr on and 8hr off or 6hr on and 6hrs off depending on the country of operation. The UK norm is 4 hours on and four ours off.
PDFORRA's attempt to civilianise military operations except in "emergencies" is at best confusing, and slightly capricious.

[TangoSierra]

I disagree with you. Times of emergency (I.e terror attack, active armed combat, prisoner cordon and search, search and rescue, etc - yes they are times where WTD are impractical for Gardai/DF - hence the MSA paid to DF.

Everything else - adhere to the Act.

If every other European Military can do it (which includes most of NATO) then Ireland can too.

To say other wise is a cheap cop out, a danger personnel and a distinct lack of leadership and owning responsibility for the welfare of the States Service Members

[DeV]

So square the circle, how do you conduct a 72 hr ex (of any description) while complying with the WTD?


Paying extra (ie MSA) doesn’t mean you are complying with the WTD

[TangoSierra]

Time off/leave - average it out either in the month or quarter annually.

Again we're not special or unique. DoD just need to pick up a phone, call the military attaches of France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Finland, Estonia etc and ask them how hey do it.

[na grohmiti]

So square the circle, how do you conduct a 72 hr ex (of any description) while complying with the WTD?


Paying extra (ie MSA) doesn’t mean you are complying with the WTD

Last corps concentration I was on, the 72 hr ex worked fine, and all the drivers managed to get in their mandatory rest breaks. While the ex may last 72 hours, surely not every element is required to be active over the entire duration of that 72 hours. Its common sense, if you aren't involved directly, you take your rest break.

The reality is, those who consider this in a military environment being unrealistic, will be considered in future in the same light as those who insisted that wearing proper hearing protection in a military environment was an unnecessary impracticality. Truth being, the only obstacle was unwillingness to change. The technology was in use and was being enforces in civvy street for many years, and faced similar resistance.

With regards to hearing protection it was only when members with permanent damage to their hearing started suing the DoD/DF/Minister that the powers that be sat up and took action.
Worth keeping in mind though that the WTD is still a fluid directive, and subject to further change, as consultations with various industry sectors are concluded. Also worth keeping in mind that the current situation came about not because of the long hours members of the DF are working, but the decision of the DFA not to allow leave to be carried over where the worker was unable to take said leave due to to the DF being overstretched and its member constantly being forced to plug gaps.

In short we wouldn' be here had he DoD not decided to downsize the DF and curtail recruitment.

[A/TEL]

ATCP/ATCA operations are somewhat unknown duration activities.

Routine offshore patrolling/fishery protection, guard duties etc are clearly defined duration activities and should come under the WTD.

Doing duties 15days out of 30 (EOD) and other similar situations should be managed out of practice by force of the OoWT Act.

Patrolling is defined in its length of duration yes, but the roles carried out cannot be defined per patrol.

Can go from FP ops to SAR Ops or MIO (Maritime Interdiction Ops) in a heartbeat.

Depending on the situation, these operations can last up to 12hrs+.

In this senario it proves impossible to apply the WTD.

This forms the backbone of the claim for increase in PDA.

[TangoSierra]

Length of duration is enough. You aim off for a realistic mixed ratio of "normal routine" and calculated emergency tasks and pay accordingly.

I wholeheartedly support an increase in PDA

[ancientmariner]

I disagree with you. Times of emergency (I.e terror attack, active armed combat, prisoner cordon and search, search and rescue, etc - yes they are times where WTD are impractical for Gardai/DF - hence the MSA paid to DF.

Everything else - adhere to the Act.

If every other European Military can do it (which includes most of NATO) then Ireland can too.

To say other wise is a cheap cop out, a danger personnel and a distinct lack of leadership and owning responsibility for the welfare of the States Service Members

It's rather strange that the most successful Forces in the world, albeit in conflicts past, including Falklands, just follow Regulations, Army Orders, and Admiralty Instructions all overseen by General Staffs and those with devolved Command. The rest is window dressing and a dilution of possible positive outcomes and to empower those NOT in Uniform. The latter will be no where to be seen when the s--t hits the fan. MSA is well earned, but the winning ingredient comes from the person in Uniform fully resourced and " Ready to Go ".

[hptmurphy]

Patrolling is defined in its length of duration yes, but the roles carried out cannot be defined per patrol.

Can go from FP ops to SAR Ops or MIO (Maritime Interdiction Ops) in a heartbeat.

Depending on the situation, these operations can last up to 12hrs+.

In this senario it proves impossible to apply the WTD.

This forms the backbone of the claim for increase in PDA.

PDA should be tax free, as no matter what is offered being subject to taxes not every person is rewarded equally.

[Auldsod]

PDA should be tax free, as no matter what is offered being subject to taxes not every person is rewarded equally.

Making PDA allowance tax free would be a huge incentive for those going to sea, especially officers and POs and up who currently automatically pay it at higher rate tax already with USC on top of that. It would be an extra 25 euro per day into the pocket for some...