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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    PDA should be tax free, as no matter what is offered being subject to taxes not every person is rewarded equally.
    I could go with that idea, and with many others. If we can solve Manning , we can ensure the future. However there is a major obstacle contained within the mindset of the Department that sees the Defence ethic and it's nature as being overburdened with costly anachronistic benefits such as Hospitals, Maternity wards, Accommodation, Married Quarters , to mention a few. If we were in conflict can we produce the necessary medical chains of recovery of injured, treatment on route, in theater stabilising surgery, homeside hospitals and aftercare. Could we produce, and staff , a Camp Bastion?

    The Services have a similar mindset when dealing with difficult equipment, often left to rot on the vine or excised, dumped to the pound, or boarded. When this is done the skills operating such equipment are also conveyed to history. The Navy over the years have lost the complete Naval competence acquired between the corvettes and P31.

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  3. #127
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Making PDA allowance tax free would be a huge incentive for those going to sea, especially officers and POs and up who currently automatically pay it at higher rate tax already with USC on top of that. It would be an extra 25 euro per day into the pocket for some...
    My point exactly!

    You could always justify tf in working so many days offshore per anum not paying tax as do tax exiles. It is feasible, just takes a will to do it.
    Time for another break I think......

  4. #128
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Making PDA allowance tax free would be a huge incentive for those going to sea, especially officers and POs and up who currently automatically pay it at higher rate tax already with USC on top of that. It would be an extra 25 euro per day into the pocket for some...

    Could be equated to working offshore at so many days per anum, where you don't pay tax. A will from the DoD..quick chat with the Revenue Commissioners, job sorted....
    Time for another break I think......

  5. #129
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Could be equated to working offshore at so many days per anum, where you don't pay tax. A will from the DoD..quick chat with the Revenue Commissioners, job sorted....
    Also, it wouldn't have a detrimental impact on the DF budget (even though it would marginally impact the State's tax take). Win win.

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  7. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Could be equated to working offshore at so many days per anum, where you don't pay tax. A will from the DoD..quick chat with the Revenue Commissioners, job sorted....
    Just playing devils advocate here.
    What about those whose duties ashore mean they are not entitled to PDA? Should they be out of pocket because they hold a shore appointment?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  8. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    Just playing devils advocate here.
    What about those whose duties ashore mean they are not entitled to PDA? Should they be out of pocket because they hold a shore appointment?
    Those at shore don't receive PDA anyway so it's irrelevant IMO. Any tax change would be to incentivise staying in AND going to sea.
    Shore appointments are less impacting on the sailor for obvious reasons.

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  10. #132
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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  12. #133
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    But, what if there is no appointments aboard ship for your particular trade at that rank? Then are you being penalised for your career path, meaning at some point in future nobody wants to go to job x because it would mean a cut in pay? Then you'll have to create a comparable allowance for people to take up said shore appointment.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    It would need to be something completely different. The allowance for seafarers stipulates.

    'the individual must be absent from the state for at least 161 days in a year
    of assessment in the performance of duties wholly performed aboard a
    sea-going ship on an international voyage. Any incidental duties not
    performed on board the ship are ignored,
    o the ship must be an EU registered passenger ferry or freight carrying
    vessel'

    It must be on an international voyage and not simply a patrol. Also needs to be a merchant vessel.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    But, what if there is no appointments aboard ship for your particular trade at that rank? Then are you being penalised for your career path, meaning at some point in future nobody wants to go to job x because it would mean a cut in pay? Then you'll have to create a comparable allowance for people to take up said shore appointment.
    Respectfully I disagree with you here. If someone takes a shore appointment they don't get an allowance but they get the benefit of not having to go to sea and the pressures that involves. Any career is about choices.

    The argument above could be extended to those in the Army/Air Corps. 'Why shouldn't I get a PDA equivalent? It's not my fault the army doesn't patrol the seas'.

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  17. #136
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    You could base it on the overseas peace support allowance which is tax free due to a specific exemption in the finance acts.

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  19. #137
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    Flat rate expenses for different categories of sea farers. (see pages 4 & 5 of the pdf)

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-...ces/index.aspx
    Fail to prepare, prepare to fail

  20. #138
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmit� View Post
    But, what if there is no appointments aboard ship for your particular trade at that rank? Then are you being penalised for your career path, meaning at some point in future nobody wants to go to job x because it would mean a cut in pay? Then you'll have to create a comparable allowance for people to take up said shore appointment.
    Then your duties & conditions are very different, those at sea should get more pay. With promotion (and sometimes appointment) comes additional pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    It would need to be something completely different. The allowance for seafarers stipulates.

    'the individual must be absent from the state for at least 161 days in a year
    of assessment in the performance of duties wholly performed aboard a
    sea-going ship on an international voyage. Any incidental duties not
    performed on board the ship are ignored,
    o the ship must be an EU registered passenger ferry or freight carrying
    vessel'

    It must be on an international voyage and not simply a patrol. Also needs to be a merchant vessel.
    Obviously... I meant based on it

    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Respectfully I disagree with you here. If someone takes a shore appointment they don't get an allowance but they get the benefit of not having to go to sea and the pressures that involves. Any career is about choices.

    The argument above could be extended to those in the Army/Air Corps. 'Why shouldn't I get a PDA equivalent? It's not my fault the army doesn't patrol the seas'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    You could base it on the overseas peace support allowance which is tax free due to a specific exemption in the finance acts.
    Maybe make MSA tax free?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bayern Fan View Post
    Flat rate expenses for different categories of sea farers. (see pages 4 & 5 of the pdf)

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-...ces/index.aspx
    Would get very little a week

  21. #139
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    It would need to be something completely different. The allowance for seafarers stipulates.

    'the individual must be absent from the state for at least 161 days in a year
    of assessment in the performance of duties wholly performed aboard a
    sea-going ship on an international voyage. Any incidental duties not
    performed on board the ship are ignored,
    o the ship must be an EU registered passenger ferry or freight carrying
    vessel'

    It must be on an international voyage and not simply a patrol. Also needs to be a merchant vessel.
    Its the concept, once you have a similar example somewhere else all you need to do is modify it accordingly,

    But, what if there is no appointments aboard ship for your particular trade at that rank? Then are you being penalised for your career path, meaning at some point in future nobody wants to go to job x because it would mean a cut in pay? Then you'll have to create a comparable allowance for people to take up said shore appointment.
    That has always been the case since the inception of PDA.. does who go to sea get it.. those who don't... don't . PDA is only paid for time outside Cork harbour to the return to the base so its not paid for time posted to the ship , only those days spent at sea....which includes days alongside other ports during the patrol time ( I may stand to be corrected on this as it may have changed , but this is as it was back in my time.)

    Security Duty Allowance is not paid while standing duties along side while a ship is 'at sea'.

    Then you'll have to create a comparable allowance for people to take up said shore appointment.
    You'll find that most of the trades affected are receiving tech pay of some description regardless of whether they are carrying out the same job ashore or afloat.

    The positive side is guys would be more enthusiastic about doing their fair share at sea if the financial rewards were there. Not sure if the extra leave for being posted to a ship is still applicable, again back in my day your annual leave doubled once posted to a ship.... problem was getting to take it and your carry over was limited to 10 days which reverted back to single time.

    Someone recently told me that rations and quarters had been reintroduced for seagoing people.... get rid of it. Makes no sense when someone has been posted to a unit.
    Time for another break I think......

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  23. #140
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Its the concept, once you have a similar example somewhere else all you need to do is modify it accordingly,



    That has always been the case since the inception of PDA.. does who go to sea get it.. those who don't... don't . PDA is only paid for time outside Cork harbour to the return to the base so its not paid for time posted to the ship , only those days spent at sea....which includes days alongside other ports during the patrol time ( I may stand to be corrected on this as it may have changed , but this is as it was back in my time.)

    Security Duty Allowance is not paid while standing duties along side while a ship is 'at sea'.



    You'll find that most of the trades affected are receiving tech pay of some description regardless of whether they are carrying out the same job ashore or afloat.

    The positive side is guys would be more enthusiastic about doing their fair share at sea if the financial rewards were there. Not sure if the extra leave for being posted to a ship is still applicable, again back in my day your annual leave doubled once posted to a ship.... problem was getting to take it and your carry over was limited to 10 days which reverted back to single time.

    Someone recently told me that rations and quarters had been reintroduced for seagoing people.... get rid of it. Makes no sense when someone has been posted to a unit.
    Also at least some of those leaving will be leaving to go to similar jobs in the private sector that are better paid and they then qualify for this Revenue allowance.

    Not just enthusiastic to be seagoing but to stay motivated and to stay in the NS

    Leave is even harder to take now

  24. #141
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Also at least some of those leaving will be leaving to go to similar jobs in the private sector that are better paid and they then qualify for this Revenue allowance.

    Not just enthusiastic to be seagoing but to stay motivated and to stay in the NS

    Leave is even harder to take now
    Enforcement of working time direct will mean that you have to be granted leave after so many hours worked... thats the law!
    Time for another break I think......

  25. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Enforcement of working time direct will mean that you have to be granted leave after so many hours worked... thats the law!
    At the employers choosing and no carry over unless due to illness

  26. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    At the employers choosing and no carry over unless due to illness
    There are some selective stances being taken on work time directives. The more interesting one is the EU view on the social aspect applicable to military forces. They see social justice and military defence as a joint enterprise and that one will fall without the support of the other. From that view point they say both must be satisfactorily funded to perform their respective roles. It is all available in EU and Euromil documentation.

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  28. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Enforcement of working time direct will mean that you have to be granted leave after so many hours worked... thats the law!
    The law states you only have to be granted up to 20 days. If a sailor has worked up 30 days and has only taken 20, by the letter of the law - the other ten can be removed.

  29. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    The law states you only have to be granted up to 20 days. If a sailor has worked up 30 days and has only taken 20, by the letter of the law - the other ten can be removed.
    Leave can be capped but you must be allowed to take the minimum amount of leave awarded under your contract.The ' hours worked 'entitlement to leave may exceed that which you are awarded , but the contractual obligation is the one that takes precedence and that leave needs to be protected.
    Time for another break I think......

  30. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Good find
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  32. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    The law states you only have to be granted up to 20 days. If a sailor has worked up 30 days and has only taken 20, by the letter of the law - the other ten can be removed.
    But that's 20 days as in 20 x 7.8 = 168 hours, is it not, i.e. based on the standard Mon - Fri model?
    I do shift work myself.
    I get my 20 x 7.8 = 168hrs statutory hours, which as is suggested, I HAVE to be allowed to take, by law
    I get other add ons, based on the fact I do shift, unsociable hours, and service days (add ons per years of service)

    But as was mentioned above, anything above the 168 hours is at the remit of my employer
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  34. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Good find
    Wouldn't work here in Naval service as we don't start or terminate our voyages in a foreign port. The UK off-shore industry get theirs by having a sign on and sign off at an non-UK port in Norway or Denmark for Tax purposes. The other problem is at this time it is restricted to commercial vessels. However there should be AN Allowance, particularly those married with families have an element of double housekeeping for the person away, and home maintenance because of his/her absence. The leave is difficult. It used to be solved by giving ships leave periods of 42 days twice a year, with half on leave for half of each period. Doesn't suit or fit in with school holidays or seasonal conditions. It also involves big tie-ups for at least half the fleet. In three ship Navy days it was doable , nine ships will be a nightmare.

  35. #149
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    I think you are missing the point of the argument Ancientmariner. They are saying make the PDA tax free "like" the allowance for seafarers. It would have to be put into the finance act, but there is already a similar exemption for overseas allowance paid to the PDF when on an overseas mission. They used to be able to claim the exemption as missions were 6 plus months but when they started to introduce shorter tours (3 months) then the allowance would have technically been taxable, an amendment was made to the finance acts to make this allowance tax free. A similar situation could be made for PDA.

    However, any advantage the DF gets with regard to pay will be quickly followed by a reciprocal request from the rest of the civil service.

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  37. #150
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    I can’t remember exactly but the target is that the NS fleet has to be at sea/capable of being put to sea with x hours ..... a very high percentage of time

    But they don’t have the establishment for that never mind the strength

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