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  • They'd tie you in knots with restrictive support packages, loaded heavily in their favour. At least with Gripens,you're somewhat tied to American kit but you'd have a bit more flexibility because of our trading links with Sweden.

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    • IMHO the only realistic option will be second-hand aircraft and the contenders would be:

      Eurofighter:
      Italy, Spain have offer at different times aircraft for sale. Austria and Germany will be retiring some aircraft soon.
      PROs: Inter-interoperability with our neighbour who flies the same aircraft on the same mission. A pure fighter aircraft with twin engines which some like for over water operations.
      CONs: The most expensive to operate.

      JAS39
      Sweden has leased aircraft in the past, how many would be available is unknown especially now Sweden wants to keep the C/D variants after the EIS of the E variant.
      South Africa could a potential source as they lack fund to fly their fleet.
      PROs: Cheapest aircraft to operate, in service with Sweden with whom we have a long history of co-operation.
      CONs: Shortest range

      F16
      USA has a stock and has leased aircraft in the past as well as sales.
      Norway and Denmark have offered surplus to Croatia.
      Israel has tried to offer its surplus to Croatia but has hit resistance from the US.
      PROs: large user base, still in production, still looks cool even 46yrs after its first flight
      CONs: oldest aircraft both for airframe and systems

      Comment


      • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
        IMHO the only realistic option will be second-hand aircraft and the contenders would be:

        Eurofighter:
        Italy, Spain have offer at different times aircraft for sale. Austria and Germany will be retiring some aircraft soon.
        PROs: Inter-interoperability with our neighbour who flies the same aircraft on the same mission. A pure fighter aircraft with twin engines which some like for over water operations.
        CONs: The most expensive to operate.

        JAS39
        Sweden has leased aircraft in the past, how many would be available is unknown especially now Sweden wants to keep the C/D variants after the EIS of the E variant.
        South Africa could a potential source as they lack fund to fly their fleet.
        PROs: Cheapest aircraft to operate, in service with Sweden with whom we have a long history of co-operation.
        CONs: Shortest range

        F16
        USA has a stock and has leased aircraft in the past as well as sales.
        Norway and Denmark have offered surplus to Croatia.
        Israel has tried to offer its surplus to Croatia but has hit resistance from the US.
        PROs: large user base, still in production, still looks cool even 46yrs after its first flight
        CONs: oldest aircraft both for airframe and systems
        Given Austria is replacing them due to costs, I don't see how we could even consider using the Typhoon tbh.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
          Politics though. Any AMARC purchase of combat aircraft requires the approval of the US government, and who knows what that would cost.
          The corporation tax rate?

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          • Austria only fielded the cheapest,most basic version and even that cost cartoon money. As for Gripen range, carry more drop tanks or get Saab to come up with conformal tanks. You'd have to be able to fly over any part of the huge EEZ we patrol with Casas, as a basic function . So a Gripen would have to be able to go from Shannon to Iceland,with a possibly diversion to the Faroes or Scotland or even Norway,unless you start getting into tankering and that's a whole new ball game in terms of cost. As for the Southern end of the EEZ,you'd need to be able to go as far as the equivalent of the Canaries, in terms of range, but you have lots of potential diverts available.

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            • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
              Austria only fielded the cheapest,most basic version and even that cost cartoon money. As for Gripen range, carry more drop tanks or get Saab to come up with conformal tanks. You'd have to be able to fly over any part of the huge EEZ we patrol with Casas, as a basic function . So a Gripen would have to be able to go from Shannon to Iceland,with a possibly diversion to the Faroes or Scotland or even Norway,unless you start getting into tankering and that's a whole new ball game in terms of cost. As for the Southern end of the EEZ,you'd need to be able to go as far as the equivalent of the Canaries, in terms of range, but you have lots of potential diverts available.
              One would imagine that when the Bears are going down the West coast with transponders off the IAA are notified by Shanwick/RAF as they know they are on the way?

              IAC would have time to scramble and preposition 2 fighters to Sligo/Knock for a refuel and Also potentially Increase alert state of 2 more And preposition to Shannon/Cork

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              • To tackle any range issue there is normally inflight refuelling. As part of their QRA responce the RAF have an A330 ready for launch, I would assume that the French have a similar arrangement. It should be possible to have some arrangement to be able to use this facility should we need too. If that was the case at least at present the Eurofighter and Grippen have an advantage as they use the probe & drogue system that the RAF & AdA have in service.
                The F16 with the boom/receptacle system is not available on RAF or AdA tankers at present.

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                • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  One would imagine that when the Bears are going down the West coast with transponders off the IAA are notified by Shanwick/RAF as they know they are on the way?

                  IAC would have time to scramble and preposition 2 fighters to Sligo/Knock for a refuel and Also potentially Increase alert state of 2 more And preposition to Shannon/Cork
                  Buddy tankers. Air to Air refuelling is as vital as cannon and missiles. While the west coast leg is reasonably short in aircraft terms, it's loiter time that you need someone to come up and splash & dash. Even if based at Casement, a Mach 1 aircraft can comfortably hit the west coast in 15 minutes. A Gripen A/B still has another 500km range, (E/F have even more) clean before the red light comes on. If you pick up target at Donegal (Vector by Primary radar, ideally, but if already shadowed by RAF, their transponders will be pinging for all to see) then you are over West Cork by the time you need to decide. By then the French will be on hand to take it further if necessary, or as has been the case recently, they double back and return the way they came, back into the hands of the RAF.
                  That said, the Bears spend so long faffing about in the north sea we would have plenty of notice from Shanwick. Hell, even twitter will tell you where they are. Time to Fly to Shannon or Knock, fill the tanks, get a coffee, clean the windscreen and kick the tyres before you have to head skyward to intercept.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • Have drones ever been or could be considered for this role .
                    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Laners View Post
                      Have drones ever been or could be considered for this role .
                      No. The only "drone" as such is the idea of a swarm attack, where a number of aircraft are controlled from one, but the technology is a long way off, and really only useful for ground attack. Next gen F/A-18 has the technology.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • You need to hear the F35B in a hover...No video can do it justice. My son was over at RIAT for this & everybody was blown away by it, no pun intended.

                        From 1:33

                        As a part of the RAF 100 years celebration the Royal International Air Tattoo displayed a variety of flypasts. Included here are nine Typhoons in formation, ...

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                        • Tonka with full a/b low level was loud, but not painful. I notice the F35 can't do the Harrier "nod". I fear they are destined to be an expensive mistake though. Too costly with too light a payload. Great on paper, but not practical for normal use.
                          Like the Mig23, F-111 or F4.

                          It was interesting to see how unstable the F35 was at low speed, while in formation with the Lancaster and the Tornado. The Fly by wire was struggling correcting to keep it in the air.
                          Last edited by na grohmiti; 1 July 2020, 22:32.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                            A Viggen, and even a Draken, are ballet shoes by comparison. Harrier in Hover is the only thing close.
                            I've heard a Draken in the Don and that was ear crackling loud.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                              Tonka with full a/b low level was loud, but not painful. I notice the F35 can't do the Harrier "nod". I fear they are destined to be an expensive mistake though. Too costly with too light a payload. Great on paper, but not practical for normal use.
                              Like the Mig23, F-111 or F4.

                              It was interesting to see how unstable the F35 was at low speed, while in formation with the Lancaster and the Tornado. The Fly by wire was struggling correcting to keep it in the air.
                              Given the service life of the F4 I'm a bit surprised to see that on the list?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                                Given the service life of the F4 I'm a bit surprised to see that on the list?
                                It was a pig to fly by all accounts. Practically useless in air to air combat. No cannon. Loads lost to AAA, SAM and air to air combat over Vietnam. Leaky fuel tanks, no missile rwr. Ended up relegated to the ground attack role by the USAF because of high attrition in their dedicated ground attack aircraft, the Thud (F105 Thundercheif).
                                When you put all your eggs in one basket, you are stuck with that basket. The term "too big to fail" is often thrown about and the F4 was exactly that. Its weaknesses were badly exposed when it entered combat, and major changes to avionics, hardware and weaponry during its service kept it in use. It was designed to strike against soviet bombers at long range, but against a more manouverable rival with a cannon it struggled.
                                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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