Defending the Irish airspace

[na grohmiti]

Delighted to hear that!



Estimate Baldonnel to NW corner of Irish EEZ at 540 km.

Believe the minimum politically saleable capability would be to intercept at this point and escort to UK/FR/IS controlled airspace with return to Baldonnel.

More would be better. (Formerly Irish controlled portion of Shanwick airspace.)

Assume drop tanks would be required.

Wrong map. What's ours on the ground, and under the sea, isn't ours in the air.

24 hours in Irish airspace.https://t.co/FQ9zVCORGe #AviationIreland #Ireland #Airspace #Aerospace #Aviation #Aircraft #Avgeek #GlobalIreland @DublinAirport @CorkAirport @ShannonAirport pic.twitter.com/HqU3sfk63Q

— IAA (@IAApress) January 8, 2019

[The Usual Suspect]

Didn't realise the Ruskies had approached that close with their transponders off. Assumed they were out in the Shanwick control area.

Forbes 13/07/20: Ireland’s Air Force Badly Needs Fighter Jets

[na grohmiti]

There was one trailing a wire in the Porcupine not long ago

[DeV]

Didn't realise the Ruskies had approached that close with their transponders off. Assumed they were out in the Shanwick control area.

Forbes 13/07/20: Ireland’s Air Force Badly Needs Fighter Jets

Shanwick is U.K. controlled, they are routinely transiting the Shannon FIR (which is approx 200 miles off the coast)

[DeV]

Delighted to hear that!



Estimate Baldonnel to NW corner of Irish EEZ at 540 km.

Believe the minimum politically saleable capability would be to intercept at this point and escort to UK/FR/IS controlled airspace with return to Baldonnel.

More would be better. (Formerly Irish controlled portion of Shanwick airspace.)

Assume drop tanks would be required.

Correction: Baldonnel to NW corner of Irish EEZ at 2,150 km.

As others have said wrong map but yeah you have to intercept them and then you have to escort them (which in the case of the Russians, would be the length of the Shannon FIR)

Probably drop tanks and a refuel

[The Usual Suspect]

There was one trailing a wire in the Porcupine not long ago

Some of the Russian aircraft also trail five mile (8km) long wire antenna behind them, which the RAF say also poses a risk to civilian traffic.

Tu-142MR 'Orel' Bear J ELF C3 Relay

Sounds like a submarine comms exercise



The activities of SSBNs, SSGNs, and SSNs on our continental shelf are almost entirely unmonitored, at least by ourselves. Particularly irksome is the practice of sitting on the bottom for extended periods of time in order to gain situational awareness advantage. It's not just that, crudely put - the water may not be ours, but the ocean floor is.

It's an environmental concern; that through accident, miscalculation, or recklessness we end up with a major environmental incident on our hands. An incident that we are currently without means to contain, mitigate, or dissuade. To this end; I believe a, CBRN capable, high availability Rescue & Emergency Towing capability is required.

Dissuasion means getting back into the business of ASW. Making life less comfortable for everyone sitting on the Porcupine Bank, and adjacent areas. Even a minimal modular capability, rotated between the P50s and P60s, would be a powerful statement of intent. It's about encouraging the thermonuclear armed squatters to get off our lawn.

Next time a Bear comes down the Atlantic coast we shouldn't concern ourselves about sending up fighters. We should use a Casa MPA to intercept it, dropping active sonar buoys all the way along it's track!

Would be like turning on the lights in a henhouse.

I'm all for developing an effective air policing capability, and more, should the instability in great power relations continue. But realistically we have a decade of infrastructure and support development to do, after the defence commission report, before we can make a final commitment. In the meantime we have other priorities that can, and need, to start to be addressed.

...you have to intercept them and then you have to escort them (which in the case of the Russians, would be the length of the Shannon FIR)

Probably drop tanks and a refuel

Linked articles an eye-opener on QRA operation and how far we are behind a comparable nation, just even in terms of necessary ground infrastructure, if we want to avoid getting embroiled in air to air refuelling.

SLD.com 24/05/18: Norwegian Quick Reaction Aircraft, Bodø Airbase and Future Basing Challenges

The Aviationist 07/03/20: Norwegian F-35As on QRA At Orland Air Station Carry Out Type’s First Intercept Of Russian Aircraft Off Norway

Arctic Today 14/9/20: More NATO jets are being scrambled from Norway


Wikipedia 2018: Royal Norwegian Air Force Stations

[na grohmiti]

Look at this. Neutral Sweden escorting US MC130J, F15 and V22 which were taking part in a NATO exercise in the baltic. The flyover was a treat to the people of (still Neutral) Gotland.

????????????????Swedish and U.S. formations flew over Gotland Island, Sweden, today. The Swedish JAS-39s escorted the U.S. CV22-Bs, MC-130Js to join U.S. F-15Es in an exercise over the Baltic Sea region. pic.twitter.com/UU6NoLEEoZ

— US Spec Ops Europe (@US_SOCEUR) November 13, 2020

[Graylion]

Even Mig 21s would be better than what we currently have.

Mostly louder ...

[Anzac]

Assuming, for a moment, we were to obtain 12 to 18 airframes similar to the ex Portuguese, now Romanian, F-16s; what upgrades would be necessary to reliably carry out oceanic policing intercepts of non-transponding or suspicious aircraft, without having to rely on aerial refuelling?

Not much if the objective is to have a "meet and greet" air constabulary capability to ward off wayward aircraft (and vessels which should also be a consideration for any coastal state).

In a fairly clean AD configuration of two AIM-9 and AIM-120 loadout with 370 gal centerline the Viper will have no trouble getting out to the edge of the 200nm EEZ limit and performing a 2 hour loiter / CAP. CFT's can be added which add a further 2000 litres but essentially that is more meaningful for a Viper tasked on a High-Lo-High mud mover mission with max weight loadout including ECM/EW pods, JDAMS, droptanks, and whiz bang sticks for self protection. There are endurance/concentration human factors involved in piloting fighter aircraft for extended periods.

The Portuguese Vipers have gone through both the Falcon Up SLEP to guarantee 8000 hours and an MLU which took them from their initial Block 15 OCU to effectively Block 50. So what the Romanians are getting is effectively used Block 50's in which they will spend a further USD$185m upgrade on some components which are seen in the Block 60 and 70. They will be pretty handy birds and on par with Gripen C's with PS-05 Mk3.

[na grohmiti]

One factor, in my opinion that could make Vipers unsuitable is their air to air refuelling is boom only. Other types with probe and drogue permit buddy tanking from suitably equipped aircraft.
My reasoning being it is a big step to go full KC, much simpler to if you decide to go down the air to air refuelling role, to do it with bolt on kit.
Moom refuelling is fine for our NATO neighbours, who have the availability of dedicated tanker squadrons flying about.
Probe and drogue could start out with buddy tanking,then perhaps fit out a suitable aircraft with hose and drogue before committing fully.

[CTU]

Another reason to get a pair of C295 airlift versions?

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stories/Air-to-air-refuelling-broadens-the-C295-tactical-airlifters-operational-versatility.html

[na grohmiti]

My thoughts exactly.
That said, Probe and drogue is still as easy as "trying to shove wet spaghetti up a wildcats bum", as one pilot put it.

[Graylion]

If we start into the fast jet game, I'd go with 2 A 321 XLR MRTT and yes, probe and drogue refuelling, most the rest of the EU uses it.

[na grohmiti]

If we start into the fast jet game, I'd go with 2 A 321 XLR MRTT and yes, moom refuelling, most the rest of the EU uses it.

Most of the EU using US made aircraft perhaps. Anyone using F16 or F35A. Even the USN use probe and drogue. Boom requires regular training by boom equipped aircraft crew, most of whom are in ANG units. You can learn how to probe and drogue without having either fitted. It's just formation flying.

[Anzac]

If we start into the fast jet game, I'd go with 2 A 321 XLR MRTT

Developing a MRTT is very expensive and very hard in an engineering sense to execute viz KC-46 and KC-30/A330 MRTT through their developmental pathway to get type certifications. Also in terms of payload capability the A321 is too small for the majority of air forces would be after a multirole platform on a purely cost benefit sense. The A330 makes much more sense in that its lower deck hold it can swallow a significant payload, the upper deck can swing role between pax and additional cargo plus still have ample tankerage to support A2A. I think Airbus will stick with the A330 for the long haul and invest their time and money evolving that.

One point I slightly disagree with Dr Cathal Berry quoted in the article linked above is that the "A330 is to big for us."

Well that might be the case however if you look solely through the Irish lens, however through a partnership of peace contribution to Europe and the ability to use it as a pan-european asset for global HADR, SASO and civilian evacuation missions it makes much more sense, increases Irish soft power and diplomatic leverage which in themselves are invaluable.