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  1. #1076
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    Our Dauphin was on a par with Saudi Arabia's, for the sheer volume of options/kit it carried, with the exception of the ability to carry an Exocet. It was more or less a nearly unique to us aircraft and it was technically on a par with an A320 in terms of computing power. It was really too much aircraft for us, at the time. We should have had the Lynx as that was really a genuine Naval heli with a serious pedigree.

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  3. #1077
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    There exists layout drawings of eithne, that appeared in a Cosantoir from the early 80s, and the heli profile on the deck and in the hangar is a lynx, not a Dauphin.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  5. #1078
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    Depending on who you talk to/who tells the best story/who buys the round, the Lynx was the realist's choice, as it was readily available, battle proven, tough as old boots and the RN would provide excellent training but it was regarded by some as politically unacceptable, being built by the Auld Enemy/not sufficiently bang up to date and they didnt want confusion with the green Lynxes being used in the Fourth Green Field.

  6. #1079
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    Even if their ones has skids? Didn't stop air corps getting Gazelles.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  8. #1080
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    The Lynx was originally part of the Anglo-French co-operation on helicopters which also included the Puma and Gazelle, but only the latter two were supported by the French. Having said that the French Navy did order the Lynx and it has only recently been retired. At the time although there was some commonality between the Navy and Army models it was not as much as we have today with the Wildcat (Lynx++).

    There is a lesson also for any possible future jet fighter: buy off-the-shelf, do not modify.

  9. #1081
    CQMS The Usual Suspect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    How often has the NS pointed a gun at a racacitrant fishing boat or fired a warning shot compared to sinking one? The point is the clearly implied "or else".
    Quote Originally Posted by Odball View Post
    Well, yeah, man, you see, like, all the tanks we come up against are bigger and better than ours, so all we can hope to do is, like, scare 'em away, y'know. This gun is an ordinary 76mm but we add this piece of pipe onto it, and the Krauts think, like, maybe it's a 90mm.
    I'm with Graylion and Odball on this point.

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  11. #1082
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    I'm with Graylion and Odball on this point.
    Yeah, there they go again with the negative waves, man...
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  13. #1083
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    The Naval Lynx had wheels and the Army Lynx had wheels (big fat ones) or skids.

  14. #1084
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    There is a lesson also for any possible future jet fighter: buy off-the-shelf, do not modify.
    Agreed.. but..

    Don't believe I'm betraying any confidences at this stage; the Dauphins were Exocet capable for a very specific reason.

    One of the major planning contingencies at the time was a Spetsnaz assault to seize Shannon, followed by an amphibious landing to reinforce.

    Exocets were for the Kiev/Admiral Kuznetsov carriers that would be supplying air cover.

  15. #1085
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    Agreed.. but..
    Don't believe I'm betraying any confidences at this stage; the Dauphins were Exocet capable for a very specific reason.
    One of the major planning contingencies at the time was a Spetsnaz assault to seize Shannon, followed by an amphibious landing to reinforce.
    Exocets were for the Kiev/Admiral Kuznetsov carriers that would be supplying air cover.
    Which Dauphins are you talking about?

  16. #1086
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    Agreed.. but..

    Don't believe I'm betraying any confidences at this stage; the Dauphins were Exocet capable for a very specific reason.

    One of the major planning contingencies at the time was a Spetsnaz assault to seize Shannon, followed by an amphibious landing to reinforce.

    Exocets were for the Kiev/Admiral Kuznetsov carriers that would be supplying air cover.
    I heard that rumour also at the time. Pity the Exocet was longer than the dauphin... AS15TT was another rumour. Collective stick even had a guarded trigger button like blue thunder...
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  17. #1087
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Which Dauphins are you talking about?
    what mental day care centre is he talking from???
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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  19. #1088
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Which Dauphins are you talking about?
    First two. There were originally to have been six to eight of the same spec to operate off the four P30s that were planned by the Navy.

    Early aircrew converting to the type were advised that permanent transfer to Haulbowline was a very real prospect.

    Specs were absolute top end subsurface/surface capabilities for the time. Frankly machines were totally overloaded in every sense of the word.

    In hindsight, roles should have been split. DoD smelt a cheap way to achieve nominal capabilities, wouldn't be told.

    Bright side; more than one overboard yachtsman was saved in the dark by the search computer in 'submarine mode'.

  20. #1089
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    You forgot the bit about eithne's gun locking on to a passing harrier, and the harrier having to take evasive maneuvers to break lock....
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  21. #1090
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    You forgot the bit about eithne's gun locking on to a passing harrier, and the harrier having to take evasive maneuvers to break lock....
    When the Navy watched as the two most lethal pieces of naval helo weaponry on the planet at the time, were being used as ministerial air taxis.. well; you can imagine.

    I could write pages about the factors; Economic, Domestic Industrial, Domestic Political, Anglo-Irish, European-American, that led to the abrupt curtailment of the P30/Dauphin/ASW/ASuW programme. Have always believed that the interpersonal dynamic between Haughey and Thatcher was the final nail in the coffin, especially after Thatcher became aware we had a stockpile of Exocets sitting in the Don'.

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  23. #1091
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    Anyway; to get this thread back on track..

    This was all at the height of the Falklands War. Very, very, messy. The most sensitive records on the Irish side were embargoed to 2081, last time I checked.

    Ireland didn't have the legal right to maintain an Air Force or Amphibious Forces at the time, according to the Anglo-Irish Treaty (our independence treaty from the UK for those outside these islands), and the polite way of putting it was that the British view was; possession of supersonic sea-skimming missiles constituted having an air force, whether the aircraft they were to be launched from were helicopters and technically Army Air Corps or Navy, or whatever.

    Respective clandestine services eventually, and certainly on the Irish side very reluctantly, arranged the exchange of a very large wedge of cash for the Exocets; from which we bought three more, lower specification, Dauphins or so the story goes.

    The prohibition on the maintenance of air and amphibious forces was removed as part of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement. The Anglo-Irish Treaty was abolished and a new treaty to govern sovereign relations was agreed.

    Long story short: The British Government no longer have any legal right to object to the establishment and maintenance of an Irish Air Force.


    Air Defence Fighters.

    Discuss..
    Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 23rd November 2020 at 22:11.

  24. #1092
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    Anyway; to get this thread back on track..

    This was all at the height of the Falklands War. Very, very, messy. The most sensitive records on the Irish side were embargoed to 2081, last time I checked.

    Ireland didn't have the legal right to maintain an Air Force or Amphibious Forces at the time, according to the Anglo-Irish Treaty (our independence treaty from the UK for those outside these islands), and the polite way of putting it was that the British view was; possession of supersonic sea-skimming missiles constituted having an air force, whether the aircraft they were to be launched from were helicopters and technically Army Air Corps or Navy, or whatever.

    Respective clandestine services eventually, and certainly on the Irish side very reluctantly, arranged the exchange of a very large wedge of cash for the Exocets; from which we bought three more, lower specification, Dauphins or so the story goes.

    The prohibition on the maintenance of air and amphibious forces was removed as part of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement. The Anglo-Irish Treaty was abolished and a new treaty to govern sovereign relations was agreed.

    Long story short: The British Government no longer have any legal right to object to the establishment and maintenance of an Irish Air Force.


    Air Defence Fighters.

    Discuss..
    Very Interesting, Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter...
    On a counter point though the British Government repealed the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act in 1989, 9 years before the GFA.
    It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
    It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
    It was a new age...It was the end of history.
    It was the year everything changed.

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  26. #1093
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    Very Interesting, Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter...
    We were trying to do something nice for our neighbours by giving the Soviet subs on the Porcupine Bank a bit of a 'shoosh', as we would say.

    Big personalities got in the way. We were sorry we ever tried.

    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    the British Government repealed the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act in 1989, 9 years before the GFA.
    Not a lawyer, so forgive me if I stomp around in this a bit..

    Believe the Statute Law (Repeals) Act 1989, repealed a whole range of partially or entirely obsolete domestic and ex-colonial governance legislation. For clarity's sake mostly, from the British perspective.

    The usual protocol in making changes to international treaties is to agree any such changes mutually, in advance, with the other contracting entity. This appears not to have been the case on this occasion. I could offer another more recent example; but let's not, for the love of God, go there.

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  28. #1094
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    The only Exocets in Bal were in the tea ring stained pages of the crew room’s Janes Defence Weekly!

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  30. #1095
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    The UK's Statute Law (Repeals( Act 1989 was a general house cleaning Act removing many defunct Statutes from the books. In respect to Ireland it removed the following:

    1. Irish Free State (Agreement) Act 1922
    2. Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922 (Session 2)
    3. Ireland (Confirmation of Agreement) Act 1925
    4. Irish Free State (Confirmation of Agreement) Act 1929


    We did something similar with the Statute Law Revision Act 2007, with removed the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act 1922 which was one of 26,370 Statutes examined as they were enacted before the formation of the State in 1922. In any case the passing of Bunreacht na hÉireann in 1937 any limitation of self defence were removed and there was nothing other than ourselves limiting our defence posture.

    As for limitations in the Treaty logged with the League of Nations there were mention of only two limitations:
    Article VI
    Until an arrangement has been made between the British and Irish Governments whereby the Irish Free State undertakes her own coastal defence, the defence by sea of Great Britain andIreland shall be undertaken by His Majesty's Imperial Forces. But this shall not prevent the construction or maintenance by the Government of the Irish Free State of such vessels as are necessary for the protection of the Revenue or the Fisheries.
    The foregoing provisions of this article shall be reviewed at a Conference of Representatives of the British and Irish Governments to be held at the expiration of five years from the date hereof with a view to the undertaking by Ireland of a share in her own coastal defence.

    Article VII (ii)
    With a view to securing the observance of the principle of international limitation of armaments, if the Government of the Irish Free State establishes and maintains a military defence force, the establishments thereof shall not exceed in size such proportion of the military establishments maintained in Great Britain as that which the population of Ireland bears to the population of Great Britain.


    In fact stating in 1922 the Air Corps had fighter aircraft including the Bristol F.2B Fighter and the Martinsyde F.4 Buzzard. Down through the years its has not only had fighters including the Gladiator, Hurricane and Seafire but had light bombers as well as patrol aircraft. Given that most of these aircraft came from the UK shows that they did not place any limitation on us having an Air Force no matter what it was called.
    Last edited by EUFighter; 24th November 2020 at 14:22.

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  32. #1096
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    So, can we just happily put this stuff on the 'crack fuelled deranged lunacy' pile?

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  34. #1097
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    The AM-39 was never cleared for use on the SA-365, even the SA-330 while capable of carrying an AM-39 (780 kg each) it was its newer stablemate the AS-332 that was the first to have these missile integrated.

    The AS-15TT was integrated on the SA-365 but it required the Agrion 15 radar system for guidance as it is a command guided missile. It was not integrated with the Bendix radar

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  36. #1098
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The AM-39 was never cleared for use on the SA-365, even the SA-330 while capable of carrying an AM-39 (780 kg each) it was its newer stablemate the AS-332 that was the first to have these missile integrated.

    The AS-15TT was integrated on the SA-365 but it required the Agrion 15 radar system for guidance as it is a command guided missile. It was not integrated with the Bendix radar
    So I suppose you are telling me there is no Santa either?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  38. #1099
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    So, can we just happily put this stuff on the 'crack fuelled deranged lunacy' pile?
    Nurse Ratched to IMO at the rush...Nurse Ratched...
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  40. #1100
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    Nurse Ratched to IMO at the rush...Nurse Ratched...
    Without rumours, imo wouldn't exist. There was rumours back before the Internet too, but they were far more wacky because they were impossible to verify either way.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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