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Defending the Irish airspace

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  • Most nations currently in the market for air to air interceptor aircraft have no use for the ground strike capability a stealth aircraft provide. In some cases stealth is a disadvantage. They want their target to know they are there.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
      Most nations currently in the market for air to air interceptor aircraft have no use for the ground strike capability a stealth aircraft provide. In some cases stealth is a disadvantage. They want their target to know they are there.
      In that case the F-18E/F is ideal because it lights up like a christmas tree.

      It appear of 4.5 Gen Aircraft in QRA type fit the Typhoon has significantly better transonic performance and even some super cruise capability, in pure Kinematics it exceeds the Rafale and that puts it ahead of the Teen series US light fighters.

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      • In the real world (not war games) even if the F-35 remain undetected by an opponent, once it opens its weapons bay doors and launches a missile it gives away it location, plus the opponent can track the missiles and take evasive action. A missile does not have unlimited kinetic energy and one shot does not mean one kill. If the missile is detected and the target has enough KE it can evade even without counter measures.

        Drop tanks are called that for a reason. In peacetime they are rarely if even dropped, this would not be the case in a real world fight. Those tanks would be gone not too soon after the start of the engagement. That is why I compared like with like in terms of thrust/weight and wing loading. Here it is easy to see that in an air-to-air scenario the Rafale and Eurofighter have the kinetic advantage. The French even claim beating a F-22 in Air-to-air at a Red Flag.

        I always take with a bit of negativity Air Forces saying that their new toy is better than the old one which it is replacing especially when the figures do not support. And the advantage the F-35 might have had could be soon be reduced greatly. If Eurofighter does get new systems (like shown to Finland), thrust vectoring and conformal tanks then it would be hard for an F-35 to engage 1:1 in aerial combat (IMHO).

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        • Yeah its all open to opinion because we don't know the actual capabilities of any of these platforms, the Typhoon and the Rafale have given the F-22 a bloody nose, however the F-22 was obeying specific ROE that naturally favored the Euro Canards, a competent F-22 driver with unlimited ROE and that does not have lens fitted to the aircraft would be in a position to dictate the time and type of engagement and the adversary would be on the back foot.

          Not sure "Drop Tanks" are ever actually dropped by modern fighters, if they are it would be a desperate defensive move, as they may not be able to get home.

          When the F-35 opens its bay its too late for the opponent, they are immediately defensive and will have to maneuver dynamically to defeat the Amraam, even a miss is a victory as the opponent is out of the fight and running away.

          Another interesting discussion is around how an adversary can beat an Amraam shot, and the fact that Meteor brings a new capability and potentially has a far wider No escape zone.

          Meteor Toting aircraft are deadly adversary's as long as they can see the opponent.

          The Finish Air force interestingly want the first strike capability as they believe it keeps the opponents honest, hence their interest in JASSM.
          Last edited by Charlie252; 12 October 2020, 00:30.

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          • Drop tanks were cast off by the Argentinian Mirages and Skyhawks in the Falklands, either prior to engaging Harriers or in running for home and clearing the pylons. Several A4s only made it home because they managed to hook up to C130 tankers. One pilot was refuelling from a tanker when he realised that his drop tanks were riddled by small arms fire so he jettisoned them and he and his wingman took turns to hook up,to get home. I was told a story by one Ex Marine Skyhawk mech, that if any pilot shed a tank without good cause, he'd be heavily fined but there were several incidences of accidental dropping of tanks during range days.

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            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

              To me the Super Hornet deal is better, the F35 offers no EW capability, and Finland is right next door to Russian snooping.
              Putting aside myriad development and deployment challenges, and whatever production delays the coronavirus pandemic may be about to cause, the F-35’s formidable technology investment can&#821…


              With ASQ-239 in the F-35 Block IV it now has full spectrum EW capabilities which in the least are equivalent to the legacy EA-18G including the stand-off jamming capability that the early block JSF lacked. Of course with whole of life incremental spiral upgrades as part of the acquisition package all customers of the F-35A be upgraded with the ASQ-239 suite.

              The RAAF has now received their 30th JSF of their initial order of 72. The expectation is that the current 24 Shornets and possibly the 11 Growlers will likely be replaced with more F-35's as the RAAF have an option for another 38 airframes.

              “To say that the F-35 performed wonderfully is an understatement, it truly is a generational and transformational capability for the Royal Australian Air Force. Throughout the exercise, JSF really came into its own,” AIRCDRE Alsop said.

              The RAAF from the initial moment of considering F-35 acquisition has focused on shaping a fifth generation Australian Defence Force. And for such a force to be able to operate, it needs to be integratabtle and expeditionary. That is what was being tested out in the month long “Lightning Storm” exercise. The exercise involved most […]


              The RAAF are certainly in a position to compare and contrast types including possessing a cohort of active strike pilots who have flown operationally all NATO types as part of their international exchange programme - except the Rafale.
              Last edited by Anzac; 13 October 2020, 12:49.

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              • Romanian air policing capability upgraded on a (relatively) modest budget



                Flight Global 11/11/20: Romanian F-16 upgrade to boost NATO interoperability

                Very basic capabilities compared to Gripen, shorter ranged and at least double the per-flight-hour cost to operate. Ex Portugal for ~ €26M each.

                They also operate at least one squadron of Israeli upgraded Mig-21 2000s.

                Believe they're open to offers for those.
                Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 12 November 2020, 16:47. Reason: Source Credit. Mig-21 2000 link.

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                • Even Mig 21s would be better than what we currently have.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by The Usual Suspect View Post


                    Flight Global 11/11/20: Romanian F-16 upgrade to boost NATO interoperability

                    Very basic capabilities compared to Gripen, shorter ranged and at least double the per-flight-hour cost to operate. Ex Portugal for ~ €26M each.

                    They also operate at least one squadron of Israeli upgraded Mig-21 2000s.

                    Believe they're open to offers for those.
                    can you picture if our department was this savvy in dealing with contracts, nice bit of business by the Romanians
                    Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by madmark View Post
                      can you picture if our department was this savvy in dealing with contracts, nice bit of business by the Romanians
                      I'd be more inclined to think it was a nice bit of business by the Portuguese.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                        I'd be more inclined to think it was a nice bit of business by the Portuguese.
                        Both are doing well out of the deal, romanian long term plan is to upgrade to final aircraft f35 so f16 Is a jump in experience for pilots and technicians from the mig-21
                        Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
                          Very basic capabilities compared to Gripen,
                          They are getting the M6 XR Tape upgrade which is very close to parity to the Block 60 and well advanced than the Block 50+ level and there are some kit found on the Block 70 such as KIV-78 Crypto and AN/APX-126 which will be installed. So not very basic capabilities.

                          Originally posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
                          shorter ranged
                          What are you comparing? The original lightweight Block 15 or a post Block 30/32, or a Viper that has never had the rolling DEEC engine upgrades over time (unlikely) or recent Block 50 with CFT's and increased weight with a Gripen A,C or E?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                            What are you comparing? ...not very basic capabilities.
                            Early model, minimally upgraded 16's as received ex Portugal vs Gripen E.

                            Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                            They are getting the M6 XR Tape upgrade which is very close to parity to the Block 60 and well advanced than the Block 50+ level and there are some kit found on the Block 70 such as KIV-78 Crypto and AN/APX-126 which will be installed. So not very basic capabilities.
                            Your illustration underlines, I think, the spectacular value that the Romanians are extracting from the way that they are going about their business.

                            Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                            The original lightweight Block 15 or a post Block 30/32, or a Viper that has never had the rolling DEEC engine upgrades over time (unlikely) or recent Block 50 with CFT's and increased weight..
                            In this context, definitely not the latter.

                            Assuming, for a moment, we were to obtain 12 to 18 airframes similar to the ex Portuguese, now Romanian, F-16s; what upgrades would be necessary to reliably carry out oceanic policing intercepts of non-transponding or suspicious aircraft, without having to rely on aerial refuelling?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
                              Assuming, for a moment, we were to obtain 12 to 18 airframes similar to the ex Portuguese, now Romanian, F-16s; what upgrades would be necessary to reliably carry out oceanic policing intercepts of non-transponding or suspicious aircraft, without having to rely on aerial refuelling?
                              Short answer is none.

                              Norwegian F-16A's have been performing this task for nearly 40 years now and not always with AAR as back-up.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                                Short answer is none.
                                Delighted to hear that!



                                Estimate Baldonnel to NW corner of Irish EEZ at 540 km.

                                Believe the minimum politically saleable capability would be to intercept at this point and escort to UK/FR/IS controlled airspace with return to Baldonnel.

                                More would be better. (Formerly Irish controlled portion of Shanwick airspace.)

                                Assume drop tanks would be required.

                                Correction: Baldonnel to NW corner of Irish EEZ at 2,150 km.
                                Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 13 November 2020, 20:07.

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