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  • [QUOTE=EUFighter;473692]There is a major difference between service intervals and service life. The airframe of most Russian aircraft are built like brick sh**houses. And I know enough Russian aircraft designers to know that they design the airframe to be tough. The area that they fall down on are the systems, hence why they are pushing through a moderistaion of their long range assets. But following the collapse of the USSR a problem the Russian face is that the integrated supply chain is no longer there. Many component where made in other countries some of which are not on the Russian friends list like Ukraine and Georgia. Also many of the more specialist company no longer exist. A case in hand are the engines for the Tu160, there is a manufacturer but they cannot supply the numbers needed for the current fleet. Neither in spares or in terms of new engines.

    Russian manufacturers fall down on their supply of spare parts. They had the luxury of mass orders in the Cold war and they would simply strip aircraft a to keep aircraft b flying,ad nauseam, until the supply chain caught up. It is still the same to this day. They do not, as a rule, build up a spares stock like Western manufacturers have done since WW 2.

    In the West, the likes of Boeing will calculate the consumption of parts from field reports so that it knows how much stock to build up, yet avoid having it's warehouse full of unmoving stock. Third parties will supply the consumables like tyres and oil filters but exclusive Boeing parts such as wing fairings and control surfaces will be manufacturered to the order of at least 10% above the number of airframes and up to as much as 30% if an item is in high demand. The Russian system was more of a " buy one airframe, get one support kit with it". Friends who have dealt with the Russian system as it exists now regard it as sheer hard work to get spares made and then delivered, compared to dealing with Western companies. Western companies don't always get it right (Agusta, Im looking at you) but they are beacons of virtue compared to Russians. Just because their aircraft tend to be rugged, doesnt mean they can't be grounded from lack of spares.

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    • We can have come off topic, but, the Russian Aircraft are indeed built tough, but mainly because they are so far behind in metallurgy terms, hence the engines life which is only a few hundred hours, 500hrs would be very high for them.

      The point I am making is that the Russians burn hours from aircraft on each of these flights and must therefore sacrifice actual front line availability, just to cause a bit of consternation in the North Atlantic. They seam to have a policy of this kind of behavior at the expense of actual military readiness.

      The idea of spending a huge amount of money to enable us to window dress along side the Russians is a total folly.

      I would hope if funding was to become available it would be focused on supporting our service members incomes.

      Then enhancing our conventional land forces military capability(maybe along the lines of.. more armored vehicles, heavier mobile weapons, modern point air defense system etc) I'm sure there are many areas needing investment and upgrade
      also enhancing our Naval fleets military capability(radar, comms, guided weapons some sub surface detection capability etc) again many areas that need investment and upgrade.

      On the Aviation side a military radar network, more helicopters with some guided weapons, a credible air lift capability, surface and sub surface tracking capability, just as a starting point.
      Last edited by Charlie252; 15 March 2020, 07:04.

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      • If we look at the issue of defence as a defence issue rather than a source of jobs and something for photo ops in foreign lands then things need to be a lot different.
        Firstly we are an island and the chance of a land based threat is low, in any case a balanced distribution of the defence budget would be equally split between all three services. Not only that but the split manpower/operations/capital would be widely different than today.

        It is a joke, even with the 120 new trucks ordered this week there is not enough lift capacity for the number of troops we have let alone some form of armored lift. But then in terms of defence we are a joke in the rest of Europe. And that when the rest also admit they are well behind what they need to invest. Air defence is just one area that needs to be improved but the realization that our force split is not fit for purpose also need to happen. I would prefer a much lower establishment but that they are paid better and given the proper equipment to do the job. And given the pitiful spending today that would not even cover half of today's establishment let alone pay for some low cost point defence fighters like the KAI FA-50.

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        • The fundamental, big, scary choice to make is whether the DF should be configured as a stand-alone force (in whatever form), or as a contributing ingredient into a wider EU defence capability (and I'm quite deliberately not saying single EU force).

          All else flows from that...

          Any answers to that are compromises with real problems attached - but that's the thing about being a grown-up, all the options come with shit attached...

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          • It would seem that the Defence Forces are nothing but a supply of manpower to be used by the State during a crisis or a Papal visit as needed and then put back on the shelf till the next crisis . Lots of praise from politicians etc and taxpayers briefly left satisfied that the Defence Forces are worth having . Maybe they should be renamed The Civil Defence Forces .
            Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
              The sensors maybe the same but I would wonder if they had been given the same acoustic database as has been supplied to the RAF. I would also think that India has its own sound catalogue which it uses for sub detection.
              There are some differences and the Indian Neptunes use some local content. The USN Poseidons have all been spiral upgraded to at least Increment 2 Block 2 level and Increment 3 upgrades on-stream with AN/APS-154 Advanced Airborne Sensor by 2022. All inservice Poseidons will either spiral upgrade further or be built for a handful of qualifying non US customers to Increment 3 Block 2 with AN/SSQ-125-E and further EW within 5 years. However, the way the Indians are moving ever closer to the US and its partners such as Australia in strategic alignment in the Indo-Pacific region thus I don't discount the opportunity for them to start having access to the full Poseidon upgrade pathway and inclusion into the BAMS/WGS project. That said the Neptunes in their current trim are a very capable maritime warfare platform including their ISR capabilities.

              Ropebag makes an excellent point with respect to Ireland and whether the DF should in the future be configured as a stand-alone force or as a contributing ingredient into a wider EU defence umbrella that provides that European Defence capability with greater strategic weight in areas which Ireland it could shine as a key component contributor and also meet its own emerging defence needs.

              Ireland is an North Atlantic rim nation that has one of the largest EEZ's within the EU and thus possesses a considerable strategic western flank to Europe. If it was going to develop a further tier 1 military capability alongside the ARW as a cornerstone contribution to a broader European defence capability building upon the CASA experience and capability that is where I would focus.

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              • Given that the Navy seems to be deflating rather than even standing still, NS recruitment and retention needs to be addressed as a priority.

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                • I see germany have joined the Hornet club. The Luftwaffe will replace their Tornado fleet with a mix of 2 seat F18 Super hornet, EF18 Growler as well as new Eurofighter to replace the outdated 1st generation versions in service.
                  Their Defence minister wanted a quick decision on selection along with quick delivery.
                  There is suggestion that the F18 was selected as it is one of few modern types capable of carrying the NATO standard tactical nuke.
                  Are they expecting trouble?
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    I see germany have joined the Hornet club. The Luftwaffe will replace their Tornado fleet with a mix of 2 seat F18 Super hornet, EF18 Growler as well as new Eurofighter to replace the outdated 1st generation versions in service.
                    Their Defence minister wanted a quick decision on selection along with quick delivery.
                    There is suggestion that the F18 was selected as it is one of few modern types capable of carrying the NATO standard tactical nuke.
                    Are they expecting trouble?
                    Just a continuation of current capabilities. Tornado is cleared to carry the B61 as part of the US controlled shared NATO stockpile. Eurofighter does not have B61 clearance so replacing Tornado IDS with the Super Hornet makes sense, given the renewed tensions on NATO's eastern flank. Replacing the SEAD dedicated Tornado ECR with the Growler is also a no brainer given there is no other dedicated SEAD platform on the market.
                    The Eurofighter order is likely just a consolation prize for local industry.

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                    • The German AF requirement for ability to deliver nuclear weapons is part of some NATO agreement

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                      • I find it interesting that First Gen Eurofighters are being retired from German service already. Wonder where they will go? Any Baltic state looking for fighters?
                        In related news, I see the Argentine order for KAI FA50s has been paused due to Coronavirus.
                        Last edited by na grohmiti; 11 April 2020, 11:10.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                          I see germany have joined the Hornet club. The Luftwaffe will replace their Tornado fleet with a mix of 2 seat F18 Super hornet, EF18 Growler as well as new Eurofighter to replace the outdated 1st generation versions in service.
                          Their Defence minister wanted a quick decision on selection along with quick delivery.
                          There is suggestion that the F18 was selected as it is one of few modern types capable of carrying the NATO standard tactical nuke.
                          Are they expecting trouble?
                          The Super Hornet has not been cleared for B61 yet (Nor has the F-35) so the Luftwaffe will have to pay for a test and cert programme through Boeing. No doubt they will attend to that in due course.

                          The Shornets are super reliable and tough with high availability rates and with impressive operating costs which will have no doubt attracted the Germans. The Growler is simply an awesome asset to have in any Air Force with the importance of EW in the air domain so it is great to see that capability level in continental Europe (Uncle Vlad wont be that happy . Fifteen Growlers will be enough to generate two strike packages, which will be more then a headache for an adversary. The emerging Block III Advanced Hornet package which the RAAF and USN are very interested in is hopefully what the Luftwaffe will later upgrade to - the Gerry's being a very logical, methodical type of bloke.

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                          • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                            I find it interesting that First Gen Eurofighters are being retired from German service already. Wonder where they will go? Any Baltic state looking for fighters?
                            In related news, I see the Argentine order for K50s has been paused due to Coronavirus.
                            None of the Baltic nations can afford to operate a Eurofighter and in any case their airspace like that of Iceland is covered by NATO air policing. Another problem is that the aircraft are Tranche 1 models, the Austrian's are getting rid of theirs and the Spanish have also offered their Tranche 1's for sale also. So with most of the big users getting rid of their Tranche 1 aircraft the costs of any upgrades will have to be covered by those that buy these aircraft.

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                            • But surely Tranche 1 models are hardly operating without modern avionics and sensors. What upgrades would they need, to be used by a country, for example who has been using export Russian aircraft up to now? Are all tranche 1 Block 5 now?
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                              • The Eurofighter does cost a lot to keep servicable and cpfh rates are pretty steep which is why most "New" Europe countries are likely to keep going for the JAS-39 and F-16. However, would the EU do a deal whereby the early airframes are gifted or sold cheap but with any required upgrade is paid for by the buyer Baltic nation and NATO subsidises the flight operations and training assistance programme? The US has never been adverse to doing excess defence article deals to move old stock and for bi-lateral - strategic reasons.

                                Airbus Defence are developing an upgrade package for Tranche 1 birds that integrates Tranche 2 and 3 capabilities and last year iirc Spain are the lead customer. The is a follow up downstream with Meteor integration and E-Scan radar.

                                All operational Tranche 1 have been upgraded to Block 5 for some years now.

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