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  1. #1101
    CQMS The Usual Suspect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider View Post
    Nurse Ratched to IMO at the rush...Nurse Ratched...
    Too funny lads; too funny...

    Remain convinced the Soviet Navy were quaking in their boots at the prospect of squaring up against our two mighty little Dauphins.

    MT was the wicked witch of the East.

    CJH, after the whole kerfuffle; was determined to squeeze every last UK taxpayer penny out of the resolution. Swarthy gentlemen in a middle-eastern hotel room represented both sides. He bought three more Dauphins, just so he could imagine her face on hearing the news.

    The Air/Amphibious forces thing has been doing the rounds for so long, in circles that you would presume to be highly informed, that I just don't know what to say beyond the following. Was presented with a text baldly stating such restrictions quite some time ago. The Anglo-Irish treaty was revised and modified so many times over the decades, including by the various Anglo-Irish trade agreements, that I suppose such restrictions could have been added/dropped between versions and that such modification may have been considered lacking sufficient legal clarity.

    A request to repeal the Anglo-Irish Treaty in it's entirety, including the Air Force restriction, is referred to (with astonishment that such a provision might still be in place) in Tony Blair's papers as AOB concerning the GFA.


    How we got here; in case anyone has forgotten.

    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    There is a lesson also for any possible future jet fighter: buy off-the-shelf, do not modify.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    Agreed.. but.. the Dauphins were Exocet capable for a very specific reason.
    Off-the-shelf fighters..
    Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 24th November 2020 at 19:47.

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  3. #1102
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    So I suppose you are telling me there is no Santa either?
    Ohhm no, he is real but only if you have been a good boy and leave out a pint of the good stuff for him

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  5. #1103
    C/S Tempest's Avatar
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    We could always consider modernising the vampires
    Attachment 8853

    Hello nurse, I'll be with you in a moment
    Last edited by Tempest; 24th November 2020 at 16:30.

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  7. #1104
    Lt Colonel EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest View Post
    We could always consider modernising the vampires
    Attachment 8853

    Hello nurse, I'll be with you in a moment
    Don't knock the Vampire it had a higher rate of climb than anything we have today, or ever had.

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  9. #1105
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    Another great webinar by IDFOC last night, dealing with the area of military air power in Ireland. It should be up on youtube soon enough.
    One suggestion made was a joint Squadron (Eurofighter Typhoon was the aircraft being suggested) to share the Western Seaboard QRA. Also suggested was 2nd Hand (Tranche 1) Eurofighters, which we could operate in tandem with the RAF, who already have the knowledge base when it comes to training and maintenance on type.
    It was also suggested that because of how modern our current civilian aircraft monitoring radar is, transition to primary radar to the edge of our Airspace is not that difficult a task.
    The Rafale was also mentioned as an option, but while the purchase or leasing cost may be relatively small, the cost to operate type, and maintaining a pool of 40 pilots current on type, quickly hits a billion extra per year in the defence vote. €60,000 per flying hour all in. (running costs, crew wages etc)
    Expanding Baldonnel was ruled out. Moving to Shannon was also ruled out. NIMYs being the main issue.
    Going forward if it was a choice over military transport or fighter jets, Military transport would be an easier sell to the public.
    A lot was covered, some great contributions.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  11. #1106
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    What's IDFOC?

  12. #1107
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    What's IDFOC?
    Irish Defence Forces Officers Club. Their webinars are mostly open to all, once you have Zoom.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  14. #1108
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    Like I said before, this country can afford combat aircraft any time it wants. It chooses not to. We, the taxpayer, funded the purchase of very expensive large aircraft for Aer Lingus,Aer Turas, Irish Helicopters for decades and operated them without financial restraint, crews ,mechs, parts, tools, overhauls etc in much more financially strained times and quite often without batting an eyelid because the country needed them, yet the AC had to struggle to get parts for simpler aircraft (even the Cessnas) and the Army and NS had to keep obsolete crap running well beyond their useful lives. We owned the 747s and the A330s, the B737s and the Bell 212s and the Bo105s outright. We bore those costs directly. The AC would have given it's collective left nut to have helicopters like those. To give you a direct real world cost, an A330 costs four times what a Rafale costs, assuming you pay full whack for them.No-one does,of course. Nowadays, you lease things or pool them and share them so costs are reduced. Get your fighters the same way. Manufacturers will bite your hand off for the work. If all you want to do is get up close and personal to a wandering TU-95 and give him a stern finger-wagging, lease in an F-18C or two from the manufacturer or the US Navy or the Finnish AF or the Swiss AF. They'd be happy to help....................Get a KC-130 from the US Marines to keep the Avtur flowing. I'm sure Joe Biden will "invite" the State Department to help us along, him being a staunch Mayo man. His friends from Mayo, the McEvaddys, run an air tanker outfit that'd be delighted to do some business for Ireland........the notion that Ireland can't afford high cost weapons is nonsense. The State simply doesn't want to.

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  16. #1109
    Lt Colonel EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Like I said before, this country can afford combat aircraft any time it wants. It chooses not to. We, the taxpayer, funded the purchase of very expensive large aircraft for Aer Lingus,Aer Turas, Irish Helicopters for decades and operated them without financial restraint, crews ,mechs, parts, tools, overhauls etc in much more financially strained times and quite often without batting an eyelid because the country needed them, yet the AC had to struggle to get parts for simpler aircraft (even the Cessnas) and the Army and NS had to keep obsolete crap running well beyond their useful lives. We owned the 747s and the A330s, the B737s and the Bell 212s and the Bo105s outright. We bore those costs directly. The AC would have given it's collective left nut to have helicopters like those. To give you a direct real world cost, an A330 costs four times what a Rafale costs, assuming you pay full whack for them.No-one does,of course. Nowadays, you lease things or pool them and share them so costs are reduced. Get your fighters the same way. Manufacturers will bite your hand off for the work. If all you want to do is get up close and personal to a wandering TU-95 and give him a stern finger-wagging, lease in an F-18C or two from the manufacturer or the US Navy or the Finnish AF or the Swiss AF. They'd be happy to help....................Get a KC-130 from the US Marines to keep the Avtur flowing. I'm sure Joe Biden will "invite" the State Department to help us along, him being a staunch Mayo man. His friends from Mayo, the McEvaddys, run an air tanker outfit that'd be delighted to do some business for Ireland........the notion that Ireland can't afford high cost weapons is nonsense. The State simply doesn't want to.
    I know most of us have talked about Shannon being a better location for possible AC growth, but would Joe Biden International Airport, formally known as Ireland West, formally known as Connacht Airport, formally known as Knock Airport not be a nice place to located a dozen or more donated F-16's?

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  18. #1110
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    What's IDFOC?
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoT...dpe4IQ3g0tu8AQ


    Well worth watching (watch the longer videos, the short ones are parts of them)

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  20. #1111
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    Knock has no ramp space. You put three 737s or A320s in it and it's jammed.

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  22. #1112
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Knock has no ramp space. You put three 737s or A320s in it and it's jammed.
    Build a new military ramp at the west end of the airport away from the passenger terminal, near to where I assume the A380s are being scraped?
    It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
    It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
    It was a new age...It was the end of history.
    It was the year everything changed.

  23. #1113
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    It's still a small airport. You'd need to add a lot of infrastructure to make it viable; parking, fuel, hangar, etc

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  25. #1114
    CQMS The Usual Suspect's Avatar
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    Hate to be coming across as this guy.

    But if we're going to get fast jets, every airfield over 800m should have a QRA capable dispersal facility; And more such airfields should be built.

    Carrickfinn would be an ideal prototype location.

    Realise this will probably require the establishment of an Air Corps security batt.
    Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 27th November 2020 at 19:23.

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  27. #1115
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    It's still a small airport. You'd need to add a lot of infrastructure to make it viable; parking, fuel, hangar, etc
    And there still would be no getting away from the fact Knock, like Cork Airport is built at the top of a hill and suffers from a higher proportion of fog bound days than more suitable located airfields.

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  29. #1116
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post


    Hate to be coming across as this guy.

    But if we're going to get fast jets, every airfield over 800m should have a QRA capable dispersal facility; And more such airfields should be built.

    Carrickfinn would be an ideal prototype location.

    Realise this will probably require the establishment of an Air Corps security batt.
    The AC doesn’t have the personnel or aircraft for detachments, nor is the State big enough.

    If the need ever arose there are a good few places they could be dispersed to in an emergency
    http://iaip.iaa.ie/iaip/IAIP_Frame_CD.htm


    1 central base and refuel elsewhere as required

  30. #1117
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The AC doesn’t have the personnel or aircraft for detachments, nor is the State big enough.

    If the need ever arose there are a good few places they could be dispersed to in an emergency
    http://iaip.iaa.ie/iaip/IAIP_Frame_CD.htm


    1 central base and refuel elsewhere as required
    If and we all know it would be a big if we had jet fighters for QRA the AC would need to be several times what it is today.
    Dispersal does not mean a permanent basing, it is a temporary use of an area. It would be good to have a dedicated site like Carrickfinn so that the AC could train for dispersal sites.
    It would also give them experience for joint training with the EU Battlegroups, say a detachment in Sweden at a BAS90 strip.

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  32. #1118
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    It certainly makes sense to have options in terms of dispersal/diversions, but I think the idea that you'd need/want several with extensive facilities for a pretty limited (numerically) force that is only a few minutes by flying by time from any no number of usable runways is taking it all to far.

    Any of the commercial airfields could support a Gripen det/out-landing, and if you want to practice FOBing you could use West Freugh, or Stornoway, or Luchars, or Keflavik, or any of 50 airfields within comfortable flying range.

    Personally I'd use Shannon as the main AC base, and run deployment exercises at Dublin airport for things like EU heads of government summits, and somewhere like West Freugh for really austere exercises.

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  34. #1119
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    Bear in mind that this small country has 9 commercial airports, 1 active military base, 1 inactive military base, dozens of airfields and hundreds of airstrips capable of hosting helicopters, apart from the actual surveyed helipads. More than enough for a small island. That's not counting what's available in the North. You could practise any kind of combat deployment without leaving the Republic, let alone the island.

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  36. #1120
    Lt Colonel EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    And there still would be no getting away from the fact Knock, like Cork Airport is built at the top of a hill and suffers from a higher proportion of fog bound days than more suitable located airfields.
    Do you have actual figures to back the fog claim? I have tried to find data but could not and IMHO most airports in Ireland are limited by cross-wind more than by fog. In fog an airport can be equipped up to CAT-IIIC which would allow landing even in the most severe fog conditions (not nice for the pilot but allowed - see JAS-OPS). However as most airports have only a single runway they will be subjected to crosswind limitations more than to fog.

    Delays due to fog are usually down to the increased traffic separation rather than landing requirements which is why fog in London, which has CAT-IIIC airports causes so many delays. There the capacity of the system is at its limit so when ATC increases separation that removes capacity leading to delays and cancellations. Apart from Dublin Airport none of our other airports have capacity limits.

    As for the conditions at Knock Airport I would expect most of its low visibility would come from low cloud rather than from fog. They might look similar but are different meteorological conditions with totally different formation criteria.

  37. #1121
    Lt Colonel EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    It certainly makes sense to have options in terms of dispersal/diversions, but I think the idea that you'd need/want several with extensive facilities for a pretty limited (numerically) force that is only a few minutes by flying by time from any no number of usable runways is taking it all to far.

    Any of the commercial airfields could support a Gripen det/out-landing, and if you want to practice FOBing you could use West Freugh, or Stornoway, or Luchars, or Keflavik, or any of 50 airfields within comfortable flying range.

    Personally I'd use Shannon as the main AC base, and run deployment exercises at Dublin airport for things like EU heads of government summits, and somewhere like West Freugh for really austere exercises.
    As stated already we have a lot of airports suitable in Ireland including 3 that are currently closed to commercial traffic: Sligo, Waterford and Galway. If the AC did have the jets (24-32 needed for 24/7/365) and did want to train deploying to an austere base it is not just a matter of flying the jets there. It would also mean transporting ground support crew and equipment, stores, fuel and a security detail. Thus having a training "austere" airport on the island of Ireland would be a lot easier that going off-island. Remember we have never deployed an AC oversea yet and to get up to speed will take a lot of training.

    Dublin Airport is one of the busiest airports in Europe hence why they are getting the second runway. To try and integrate a jet fighter deployment training into DA would be a nightmare and would likely be a non-starter.

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  39. #1122
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    The early morning queue in Dublin of aircraft waiting to take off tells its own story.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  41. #1123
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Personally I'd use Shannon as the main AC base, and run deployment exercises at Dublin airport for things like EU heads of government summits, and somewhere like West Freugh for really austere exercises.
    I would keep the Casement for Heli ops and the such, As EUFighter says, Dublin is affectively Ireland's Heathrow. The RAF don't keep RAF Northolt for the fun of it do they?
    It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
    It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
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    It was the year everything changed.

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  43. #1124
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    (This whole thing is getting into Walt territory) but any QRA jets on the east coast would be a redundant overlap with RAF Lossiemouth- far better to station them on the west coast and enter a service level agreement that the would cover the east and in return we cover the western approaches which benefits them by increasing the depth of their defences.we could use Dublin airport for temporary deployments during summits etc

    Shannon would make sense as it’s quiet and the coastguard heli would provide SAR cover for pilot recovery
    Another issue not mentioned- most nations have SAR assets with the range to get a ditched pilot back

    Also if we were begging for freebies from Joe Hornets would make more sense- twin engines.
    Last edited by warthog; 28th November 2020 at 11:44.

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  45. #1125
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    Quote Originally Posted by warthog View Post
    (This whole thing is getting into Walt territory) but any QRA jets on the east coast would be a redundant overlap with RAF Lossiemouth- far better to station them on the west coast and enter a service level agreement that the would cover the east and in return we cover the western approaches which benefits them by increasing the depth of their defences.we could use Dublin airport for temporary deployments during summits etc

    Shannon would make sense as it’s quiet and the coastguard heli would provide SAR cover for pilot recovery
    Another issue not mentioned- most nations have SAR assets with the range to get a ditched pilot back

    Also if we were begging for freebies from Joe Hornets would make more sense- twin engines.
    Be careful, twin engines does not today actually mean it is safer. Modern engines are extremely reliable and the need for redundancy from year gone by does not mean improved safety. A reason why two most commercial jets are twin and not triple or quads is that the need to cope with "one engine out" during the start, if that requirement was removed there would be a move to single engine aircraft (provided we could get the power). The reason is probability, every engine has the same probability to fail if maintained the same as the others, but adding more engines raises the probability the there will be a failure.

    If you have a engine shut down rate of 1 in 10,000 hrs for that engine type, then a single engine aircraft has a 1:10,000 chance of experiencing a shut down. However if you had a second engine that probability raises to 2:10,000, as both engines have the same probability. In any case the air force with the greatest experience of over water flying the US Navy is currently equipping itself with F-35C's which are single engined. Indeed a lot of the aircraft that it ever operated were single engine aircraft, A-4, A-7, F-8 etc. So while the Hornet could be a good candidate it is not because it is twin engined.

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