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  1. #426
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    Shannon ATC reporting unknown Russian Aircraft 20 miles behind a Delta flight to Heathrow another Aircraft told the Russian Aircraft will pass will pass 4 miles behind him.

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  3. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    MADRAS49 - a QRA tanker - left BZN about an hour ago and went north...
    While inbound to Cork earlier today at 12.30ish passed overhead a tanker and two Typhoons(one attached) close to the UK/Irish FIR boundary heading south west.

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  5. #428
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    Here's todays track of the Russian day trippers.

    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed!
    I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

  6. #429
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    That's a bit close to the actual airspace.
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    German 1: That is the bad news.

  7. #430
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    Was there any Russian delegation at the recent defence conference we had?
    At least it gives the QRA crews something to do and they get to shadow the whole range of Russian long range aircraft this week.

  8. #431
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    It does make one wonder what has been transiting the west coast under the water that can’t be seen - have they been following something?
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  10. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    Here's todays track of the Russian day trippers.

    That is close; wonder if the Healy-Rae's could have turned on the Kingdom of Kerry Imperial Air Defence Force's MEADS targeting radar to spook the Russians?

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  12. #433
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    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...01455?mode=amp

    In the absence of even a plan for our own assets, should we let NATO or a neutral EU air force protect the western approach?
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  13. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    It does make one wonder what has been transiting the west coast under the water that can’t be seen - have they been following something?
    The russian embassy will say they are exercising their right to transit international airspace, as they have been doing for years.
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  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...01455?mode=amp

    In the absence of even a plan for our own assets, should we let NATO or a neutral EU air force protect the western approach?
    Why would they be champing at the bit to do so, only waiting on an invite?

    France is fighting a war in Saharan Africa, while also deploying in eastern Europe. Norway, Sweden and Denmark have their hands full in the Baltic and north Atlantic, and Germany's military has collapsed.

    You could ask the EU for a collective response, and frame it as a problem effecting all of Europe's economy and security, and say that it's not a problem with Irish doctrine/budget/politics, it's simply about geography (this has an element of truth about it, and is a very similar argument to that which Italy and Greece made during the migration crisis) - Europe may agree to something along similar lines to the Icelandic, Baltic and Black Sea air policing operations, but it won't be free for Ireland, they would require (and actually need) a significant financial contribution - or a return of favours: an Irish Bn Gp to Mali....

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  17. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The russian embassy will say they are exercising their right to transit international airspace, as they have been doing for years.
    Oh, I know the Russian reply will be the diplomatic equivalent of "Feck off", it's just that the concentration and timing seems unusual.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  18. #437
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    It's not like there is any local or international crisis happening to distract attention....
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  20. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    Oh, I know the Russian reply will be the diplomatic equivalent of "Feck off", it's just that the concentration and timing seems unusual.
    The timing is likely to be something of a coincidence, as not least the BEAR F was talking to subs, and subs don't fly to the eastern Atlantic.

    The concentration is also coincidence - Sov, err... I mean Russian doctrine is about planned operations that go to significant/maximum effort, then stop for X period of time to regenerate - they'll also have been interested in not just what happens when you fly down the route for a day, but what happens when you fly down it every day for a week.

    The Syrian war has been a goldmine of int about Russia fights - the RuAF has a doctrine of sending a particular type on an operation, using it like mad for X period until it's serviceability is exhausted, and then swapping with another type, with the returning type taking months to regenerate.

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  22. #439
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    Asking the EU to provide cover like is done for the Baltic nations is unlikely to be greeted with open arms. First those nations are members of NATO, the defence alliance we try and stay as far away from as possible. Also the Baltic states are spending considerable more as a % of GDP on defence as we do. They are all likely to reach the 2% target in the next years if they have not already do so.

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  24. #440
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    Yeah, the 'European solidarity' angle is likely to get a great big FO, given Ireland's attitude to 'European solidarity' on the EU's eastern frontier...

    Reap, sow...

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  26. #441
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    It's pointless even discussing this topic unless there is a realistic chance that we would shoot a Russian Aircraft Down if it strayed into our airspace.

    The RAF and the Baltic policing mission are very clear on this point.

    Going up and having a look is just a joke, the ex GOC's suggestion of 16 aircraft was based on a purely window dressing plan. So a complete waste.

    The RAF have HAS's and Airfield's that can be secured and have the capability to bring them too war readiness in short order, they can launch waves of typhoons backed up by Tankers and I'm sure AWACS and Elint aircraft are in the mix on a daily basis.

    Anything less then that capability is a waste of time and more importantly money when the rest of the DF is chronically underfunded.

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  28. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    It's pointless even discussing this topic unless there is a realistic chance that we would shoot a Russian Aircraft Down if it strayed into our airspace...


    I disagree - one of the problems with the RuAF flights is the safety issue of flying without flight plans and transponders, as well as trailing several miles of ULF antenna. Decent, ground based, long range radars would mitigate against most of those problems - not as good as having fighters alongside and transmitting, due to radar horizon and our friends playing games, but it would provide a decent picture out to 200 miles or so.

    4 radars would provide coverage from Donegal to Cork, it's just a question of whether the political will exists to ask for help, and to then make the capital spend to build up a national capability.

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  30. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    It's pointless even discussing this topic unless there is a realistic chance that we would shoot a Russian Aircraft Down if it strayed into our airspace.

    The RAF and the Baltic policing mission are very clear on this point.

    Going up and having a look is just a joke, the ex GOC's suggestion of 16 aircraft was based on a purely window dressing plan. So a complete waste.

    The RAF have HAS's and Airfield's that can be secured and have the capability to bring them too war readiness in short order, they can launch waves of typhoons backed up by Tankers and I'm sure AWACS and Elint aircraft are in the mix on a daily basis.

    Anything less then that capability is a waste of time and more importantly money when the rest of the DF is chronically underfunded.
    If Ireland became the first line of defence for Europe against the Russians then the "brown stuff has hit the propellers". Leave the Russians to NATO unless they cross the invisible line.

    I do think Ireland needs a system in place to see what aircraft are transisting its area of responsibility, and have a capability to respond to an emergency in its airspace. (What's the point of having legislation in place for the interception of aircraft if you have no realistic prospect to intervene, a turboprop trainer or a single business jet is not good enough, unless you expect the crew to go kamikaze)

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1...search_type=si
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed!
    I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

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  32. #444
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    The Russian state that they have always being operating in "International" airspace and that is technically correct. What is not said is that the airspace concerned is controlled airspace and comes under different civilian control centres. For the UK this has been Stanwick, Scottish and London FIR's and for us the Shannon FIR. For an aircraft to enter it needs to have flied a flight plan, the PIC needs to be in radio contact with the FIR and needs to have their transponder on. None of this happens with the Russians, why should it their purpose is to test the air defence system of NATO.

    That everyone knows this, nobody send a summons to the Russian or instigates any legal action as everyone knows it would be just ignored by the Russian. The NATO countries launch QRA aircraft to incept these bogies, and to track them while at the same time providing details to ATC and thus ensuring the safety of other air traffic. For example if a Tu-142MR (Bear J) is trailing its long VLF antenna behind them then the risk zone is considerable. This cannot be seen on radar and thus an intercept is necessary.

    If we are not capable of exercising control over an area we should not be claiming it. That goes just as much for our expanded maritime zone as for the Shannon FIR. We fought long and hard to become a nation; but being a sovereign nation means taking responsibility for that nation and not hoping others will step-in when you do nothing.

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  34. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    I do think Ireland needs a system in place to see what aircraft are transisting its area of responsibility, and have a capability to respond to an emergency in its airspace. (What's the point of having legislation in place for the interception of aircraft if you have no realistic prospect to intervene, a turboprop trainer or a single business jet is not good enough, unless you expect the crew to go kamikaze)
    Does the Minister for State with responsibility for Defence not have to pilot the kamikaze plane? Naturally with the Secretary General of the Department as co-pilot.
    If they make the rules then they should live by them; do not ask someone to do something that you would not do yourself.

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  36. #446
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    Have they summoned the Russian Ambassador to Government Buildings to explain this egregious transgression of our sovereign airspace?

    I would say a bigger worry for NATO is the Russians Parking Submarines in the GIUK gap, hence the UK investment in the P-8 and the Carrier strike group.

    The reality is the Russians will wear out their Strategic aircraft very quickly with these long flight out into the Atlantic, those aircraft are old and very maintenance intensive and the Russian aircraft have very short service lives in Flying hour terms. In my view these flight are just window dressing from the Russians when in reality the Frontal Air force has limited capacity to project airpower at that distance for any period.

  37. #447
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    But these are old aircraft and have been doing it for generations. BEARS that were monitored last week by RAF Typhoon aircraft have in the past been monitored by RAF Tornado and RAF phantom, and even RAF Lightning (1).
    They won't stop soon, they'll just use a different aircraft.
    Last edited by na grohmiti; 14th March 2020 at 09:24.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  38. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    But these are old aircraft and have been doing it for generations. BEARS that were monitored last week by RAF Typhoon aircraft have in the past been monitored by Tornado and phantom, and even Lightning (1).
    They won't stop soon, they'll just use a different aircraft.
    Maybe its slipped everyone's attention but the Last sortie wasn't Bears but Tu-160 Blackjacks

    Last edited by CTU; 14th March 2020 at 09:20.
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed!
    I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

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  40. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Have they summoned the Russian Ambassador to Government Buildings to explain this egregious transgression of our sovereign airspace?
    The Russian never entered our or any other EU sovereign airspace. They did however enter the FIR Shannon for which we are responsible.

  41. #450
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    The Tu-95 & Tu-142 Bears may be old but they have been modernized in the past few years. Also unlike fighters their flight hours/cycle life is not so short especially as the Russian never tried to use them in a low level role. We can easily expect each one to have a life of 30,000 hours (a 737 or A320 would be 3-4 times) and that the Russian never use them for more than 200 hours per year. I let you do the Maths on that one.

    As for the Tu-160 Blackjacks these are a lot newer and just when they entered service the USSR collapsed so for many years they got little use and so should have plenty of hours still on the airframe. In fact they have recently re-started production of the Blackjack with the Tu-160M2. However spares and especially those for the engines remain critical and thus the amount of sorties per year will be severely limited.

    What some might have missed is that the Russians have also been bussing the Yanks and Canukes also last week with aircraft flying from a base in easten Siberia (Ukrainka).

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