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  • The Fougas were retired,as were the Alouettes,because the manufacturer was no longer interested in making,stocking or selling spares for them, in the same way as Dassault and Snecma stopped supporting the Mirage III family /Atar 9 engines worldwide and users were forced to ground their fleets or sharply reduce their use as spares holding dwindled. Aerospatiale were charging cartoon money for Alouette spares, to the point that virtually the only ones left flying are Indian and Romanian license built copies. The Fougas were also having issues with certain bolts and rivets in the wings, so it was an easy decision to chop them.
    One of the points that is forgotten about this State's ability to afford expensive aircraft is that we spend decades buying and operating very expensive aircraft under the guise of Aer Lingus, who, as the former State airline, flew 737s and 747s,that were fully owned by the State and cost a fortune to buy and operate, back in the day when there were no Ryanair style discounts from Boeing. We paid full whack for those aircraft and they cost considerable amounts to run, much more than the cost of any AC aircraft. The 747s, in particular, drank fuel and oil like alcoholics and their eye-watering daily operating costs, back then, would put the hourly cost of a Gripen today, in the shade. We were also held over a barrel for the costs of the Fougas, their overhauls and their subsequent modifications to our standards. Yet, for reasons of prestige, aircraft like the 747s were kept going until better aircraft came on stream. The A330 halved operating costs literally overnight, as a direct comparison. (today, the new NEOs are doing the same). Once aircraft leasing became the norm in the airline industry,gross costs fell further but airlines still spend crazy money in keeping modern fleets going. They'd regard running a PC-9 as small potatoes and even a moderately sized helicopter as still cheaper than running a 737 or A320. Ireland Inc was paying for a modern, competitive, varied fleet in EI for decades until they sold the company, considerably more monies than were spent on the AC. Ireland is not a poor country,still has a good reputation as a worthy client to the big banks and Govt lenders and is perfectly capable of leasing even a token fleet of combat jets (or ships or tanks or modern artillery or radar,etc,etc). But,the big but, is that Govts don't want to be seen to buy big dollar military kit, as it is percieved as a waste, when it was regarded as perfectly okay to piss money away on the 747s and old 737s, long after they were known to be uneconomical to keep. They have also tended to buy capital equipment , when the old stuff is on the verge of collapse or is practically suicidal to operate. Im not saying we should hose money away on Defence but a bit of joined up thinking and an approach to the Swedish Govt would put a leased Gripen on the ramp,within short order. There are plenty of fast jet operators out there who would come up with a Govt to Govt leasing scheme, if it gave their crews and aircraft a worthwhile task ..... Defence costs, within reason, are one of those costs that a country has to suck up,like paying for policemen or roads or harbours or airports or ATC radar, simply because you have to. We have a first-world country with a military that is a shadow of what it ought to be.

    Comment


    • I see that the topic is also being discussed on pprune.org
      Military Aviation - Ireland Considers Purchase of AD Fighters - Originally Posted by racedo As they were an Export market for UK Govt they why would they have "Stolen" them ? Uk sold aircraft to them during WW2. It was a Martinsyde Type A Mark II biplane Michael Collins got hold of one by agreement
      Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

      Comment


      • GTTC Please Paragraphs..

        Aer Lingus did indeed operate those aircraft, and lost an Absolute Fortune, in addition they were an employment office for various North County Dublin politicians.

        The 330 halved costs over the 747-100, no surprise really.

        The NEO is more like a 20% reduction in Fuel Cost, a smaller but significant reduction in Maintenance and associated costs, but a significant increase in capital cost.

        The AIII remained in French Navy service until quite recently and at least a decade longer then AC service, I don't agree that at the time there were any new or more pressing issues with spares availability from the manufacturer.. certainly not any worse then it had been for the previous 40 years.

        Lets be honest the AIII was a very limited helicopter and was retired because it was operationally obsolete, the replacements are far better aircraft in every measurable way. It was a good decision and was long overdue.

        Remember the plan in the Mid 80's was to replace the AIII with the Dauphin, this never happened for various long and book worthy reasons and as a result the AIII soldiered on long past its utility.

        I don't imagine my opinion on this will be popular as the mantra in the AC was that the AIII was a "Great Helicopter".

        The retirement of the Fouga was a more nuanced process.

        Early 90's AC knew the Fouga was outdated and very limited but could not gain any political traction to fund a replacement. A decision was made to retire the Fouga based on various maintenance related reasons in the vain hope that it would "Force" the government to buy the AC new jets.

        This was not a good or sound decision.

        There were all sorts of rumors at the time about Alpha Jets and used Hawks etc.. they were just that rumors.
        There were never any assessments done nor were AC pilots sent away to test fly them or engineers sent to technically assess airframes in various countries.
        I heard all those rumors at the time and since, and they were all just heresy.

        In 1993/4 Allennia sent over an S-211 in a unsolicited publicity visit, a couple of the instructors from BFTS flew the aircraft and liked it, but that was as far as it went.

        The Fact is the Fouga, while a lovely aircraft, was extremely limited and in AC use spent large parts of its career in the Hanger. Its only use was AFTS, the couple of years the Swallows operated and the odd flyover at an army exercise.

        For most of 1993/4/5 only one officer was assigned to Light Strike Squadron. That lucky guy tried valiantly to fly each airframe each week. But wasn't allowed go anywhere outside the R15/16.

        Things have changed in the AC over the last 25 years and the organsiation has made great strides in building relationship with the Army and Navy, this has significantly increased the political capital required to enable a Discussion about new aircraft and capabilities.

        Still not convinced that Front Line Fighter aircraft are even on page one of the shopping list.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by sofa View Post
          The most likely threat to Ireland is to do with fishing I would say, and if the likes of Spain (They mess about in Gibraltar waters) sends up a gunboat to shoo away the NS, they may think twice about going down that road if we could shake a bigger stick. If we choose not to police our own airspace someone else will as is happening at the moment. The understanding we signed with the UK is just to save face they were going to do it anyway.
          Although a bit off topic; please get away from the stereotype of the late '70's early '80's, the Spanish are not the ones who commit the most fishing offences, it is much closer to home the British.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
            Although a bit off topic; please get away from the stereotype of the late '70's early '80's, the Spanish are not the ones who commit the most fishing offences, it is much closer to home the British.
            It will be worse when they leave the EU.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

            Comment


            • On this topic and the general topic of the budget IMHO there only factor that will bring significant change is the EU. De facto the EU is a political organisaion and now that the Brits are gone it will slowly reform and become a more integrated Union. We are part of the Union and we see our future very much linked to that Union, and like every club its members will have obligations. In the realm of defence it is the Common Security and Defence Policy to which we signed up too, even if some still hold up the old outdated banner "we are neutral".

              The exit of the UK, Covid-19 and the developing security situation on the borders of the EU will drive that change. We already see the discussion over the budget and Covid-19 bailout how some countries believe that others should do more. Most of the EU is in NATO and they are raising their budgets to the infamous 2%, now while we are not members of NATO the day will come when those 21+3 look west at us. A nation that has major benefits from the Union yet in this area does not contribute like the rest, what do you think the EU would do? There will be political pressure and a lot of it. When that day comes (2-4 years time) we will have had to have grown up and become adults in terms of defence.

              Options could be;
              (a) We could do nothing and most likely be seen as not committed to the EU by the other nations.
              (b) We could just contribute more to the common EU budget, like the difference between our defence budget and the EU average as % of GNI.
              (c) We could finally take the common defence of the EU seriously and start committing to defence resources required.
              (d) We could do an Irexit.

              The change will come from external and the problem then is that the solution is usually not the preferred option.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                GTTC Please Paragraphs..

                Aer Lingus did indeed operate those aircraft, and lost an Absolute Fortune, in addition they were an employment office for various North County Dublin politicians.

                The 330 halved costs over the 747-100, no surprise really.

                The NEO is more like a 20% reduction in Fuel Cost, a smaller but significant reduction in Maintenance and associated costs, but a significant increase in capital cost.

                The AIII remained in French Navy service until quite recently and at least a decade longer then AC service, I don't agree that at the time there were any new or more pressing issues with spares availability from the manufacturer.. certainly not any worse then it had been for the previous 40 years.

                Lets be honest the AIII was a very limited helicopter and was retired because it was operationally obsolete, the replacements are far better aircraft in every measurable way. It was a good decision and was long overdue.

                Remember the plan in the Mid 80's was to replace the AIII with the Dauphin, this never happened for various long and book worthy reasons and as a result the AIII soldiered on long past its utility.

                I don't imagine my opinion on this will be popular as the mantra in the AC was that the AIII was a "Great Helicopter".

                The retirement of the Fouga was a more nuanced process.

                Early 90's AC knew the Fouga was outdated and very limited but could not gain any political traction to fund a replacement. A decision was made to retire the Fouga based on various maintenance related reasons in the vain hope that it would "Force" the government to buy the AC new jets.

                This was not a good or sound decision.

                There were all sorts of rumors at the time about Alpha Jets and used Hawks etc.. they were just that rumors.
                There were never any assessments done nor were AC pilots sent away to test fly them or engineers sent to technically assess airframes in various countries.
                I heard all those rumors at the time and since, and they were all just heresy.

                In 1993/4 Allennia sent over an S-211 in a unsolicited publicity visit, a couple of the instructors from BFTS flew the aircraft and liked it, but that was as far as it went.

                The Fact is the Fouga, while a lovely aircraft, was extremely limited and in AC use spent large parts of its career in the Hanger. Its only use was AFTS, the couple of years the Swallows operated and the odd flyover at an army exercise.

                For most of 1993/4/5 only one officer was assigned to Light Strike Squadron. That lucky guy tried valiantly to fly each airframe each week. But wasn't allowed go anywhere outside the R15/16.

                Things have changed in the AC over the last 25 years and the organsiation has made great strides in building relationship with the Army and Navy, this has significantly increased the political capital required to enable a Discussion about new aircraft and capabilities.

                Still not convinced that Front Line Fighter aircraft are even on page one of the shopping list.
                The Decline of the Fouga, did this happen under the term of one particular GOC AC or many? Because I remember one particular GoC AC was delighted to be at government beck and call when it came to Ministerial Transport, and a media darling when it came to Air Spectacular or the capability of new helicopters, but did little to advance the capabilities of Air Corps beyond getting everyone out of a Green uniform. The Status quo was maintained, and barely so.
                No effort made to push for a return of a Leased Puma for SAR, at a time when the state was literally crying out for long range SAR. No attempt to speak up to retain the pilots that were leaving, short of threatening them with Court Martial.
                But hey.. Blue uniforms!
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                Comment


                • It may be worth considering that given the requirement for interceptors has suddenly appeared on an equipment wishlist, literally out of the blue, that there may be external pressure at work here.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    The Decline of the Fouga, did this happen under the term of one particular GOC AC or many? Because I remember one particular GoC AC was delighted to be at government beck and call when it came to Ministerial Transport, and a media darling when it came to Air Spectacular or the capability of new helicopters, but did little to advance the capabilities of Air Corps beyond getting everyone out of a Green uniform. The Status quo was maintained, and barely so.
                    No effort made to push for a return of a Leased Puma for SAR, at a time when the state was literally crying out for long range SAR. No attempt to speak up to retain the pilots that were leaving, short of threatening them with Court Martial.
                    But hey.. Blue uniforms!
                    Correct started with that particular individual. The Alienation of the AC's biggest customer the Army was a travesty. Blue uniforms were the last Nail in the coffin.
                    From the mid 80's SAR was the only game in town for Heli's. The AIII on the border was always an afterthought.

                    But others carry plenty of blame, a certain Group Commander circa late 90's stated that the GASU was "the future of the AC".

                    Another GOC presented a list of aircraft replacement requirements and was asked for his number one Priority, it was of course the training aircraft replacement which led to the PC-9.
                    AFAIK I know at the time there was no issue with the SF-260 aircraft other then terrible maintenance practices leading to low availability. 12-18 months for an overhaul was criminal miss management.

                    Buying 8 training aircraft when the "Fleet" was on its knee's, was another disaster. The AC has never been able to utilize that training capacity because of a general shortage of other airframes.

                    And plenty of blame for the civil side and the various ministers.. the Medium Lift Heli program is case in point.

                    As I have said many time a shortage of Roles, Missions, Aircraft and flying hours has hampered the AC for years.

                    Constant pilot and technician shortages must be addressed before any real replacement/growth program can be undertaken, sending YO's to Australia is a good step. More of that sort of thing is needed to accelerate bridging the experience gap that happens very few years, when a group of experienced pilots, leave and the remaining guys have relatively little experience.

                    Retention is important, on the Pilot, side but the reality is more flying early in the career would lead to significant productivity gains, fleet size and too many types make this difficult to achieve.

                    IMHO a complete reorg is required in conjunction with a proper evaluation of required roles for the future.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                      It may be worth considering that given the requirement for interceptors has suddenly appeared on an equipment wishlist, literally out of the blue, that there may be external pressure at work here.
                      Doubt it, even so there are many more pressing requirements.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                        It may be worth considering that given the requirement for interceptors has suddenly appeared on an equipment wishlist, literally out of the blue, that there may be external pressure at work here.
                        I am not sure. I was in the session at Slándáil and no EU or similar representatives there who might have reprsented applying pressure. I think this showed up in the white paper after the first Russian visits. And TBH I am amazed at how cavalierly some people take visits by Russian nuclear bombers.

                        Comment


                        • Would there be anything to gain by sending new techs to Oz too, to build time working in an active military air arm before the old sweats in the Don get to them?
                          Not Even as far as Oz, just somewhere without a language barrier, that is appropriately neutral? Even at that, we sent Naval cadets to Britannia for years and nobody batted an eyelid. Send some AC techies to Brize or Benson for a year or so after they have qualified, show them how it's supposed to be done.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                            I am not sure. I was in the session at Slándáil and no EU or similar representatives there who might have represented applying pressure. I think this showed up in the white paper after the first Russian visits. And TBH I am amazed at how cavalierly some people take visits by Russian nuclear bombers.
                            The biggest danger with Russian incursions is an accident. Ancient airframes,with obsolete analogue avionics maintained by conscripts, flown by pilots who qualified under the soviet system (where loyalty to party trumps ability every time).
                            The recent incidents at their naval surface fleet (that we know of) is a warning. Maintenance is a huge problem there. Many of the recent overflights have been by naval aircraft.
                            We need to know where they are so we can get to the inevitable debris field first.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                              Would there be anything to gain by sending new techs to Oz too, to build time working in an active military air arm before the old sweats in the Don get to them?
                              Not Even as far as Oz, just somewhere without a language barrier, that is appropriately neutral? Even at that, we sent Naval cadets to Britannia for years and nobody batted an eyelid. Send some AC techies to Brize or Benson for a year or so after they have qualified, show them how it's supposed to be done.
                              Sweden - they all speak English. And exposure to a different culture is good for you.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                                Sweden - they all speak English. And exposure to a different culture is good for you.
                                Just to offer an element of realism to this conversation, in the last couple of years Sweden has offered to provide Irish units with airlift for a couple of exercises - one a general Arctic Warfare exercise in Sweden, and two Air Defence live fire exercises in the Baltic, with a number of users of the RBS 70 - in one case they got a 'holding' reply, follows by a 'no thanks', and in the other two by no response at all.

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