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Defending the Irish airspace

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  • #16
    Originally posted by sofa View Post
    Why are we moaning about having a top of the range trainer.

    Moan about the lack of a air defence fighter.
    Ditto decent SAM capability.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
      Yes. Purely because they can't politically justify a G. IV and the King Air is gone. Ryanair has four Learjets; maybe the Don could borrow one off him if this one goes tech.
      Stick a set of sidewinders on the Learjet.
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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      • #18
        I think that advanced trainers would be nice if you also had fast air to move up to. Given that we are unlikely to acquire both, why not get the fast air and farm out that training? Or get a trainer like the aermacchi which can at least bring a missile to bear on the Learjet.

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        • #19
          Let's see what is out there first. If we see loads of bears, we might be able to talk to our neighbours - if not UK then France - about the odd couple of fighters visiting. I'd really go with radar first, and integrate it into a European radar network that one could postulate.

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          • #20
            Light trainer (eg Hawk) probably wouldn't have the range to shadow/escort a Bear 100 miles out.

            A even 3rd gen flighter would require probably a 20% increase in the defence budget.

            Let's worry about knowing that there is a requirement to send up the Learjet to ram a Bear first.

            The purchase, set up, integration etc of 2 long range radars could cost north of €50 million

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            • #21
              A small number of Fast jets capable of patroling our airspace which have the "potential" to intercept anything the various military blocks might might be inclined to let stray over Ireland would be nice. Keep it as simple as possible and do a service deal with Sweden for long term maintenance if you fancy some of the older Saabs.

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              • #22
                Just wondering has anyone any idea of what would be required in both manpower and logistics to keep 2 aircraft on alert ? Also If we were able to detect an belligerent aircraft at 400/500km out over the Atlantic, what sort of time frame in needed for intercept and at what distance would the intercept happen?

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                • #23
                  I say something like 2 x Thales TRAC2000N on high ground in Donegal and Kerry. Owned & operated by IAA (that way the cost can be recouped from airlines and maybe even some from the EU). Intergrated into IAA & AC radar pictures.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by apc View Post
                    Just wondering has anyone any idea of what would be required in both manpower and logistics to keep 2 aircraft on alert ? Also If we were able to detect an belligerent aircraft at 400/500km out over the Atlantic, what sort of time frame in needed for intercept and at what distance would the intercept happen?
                    Also factor in that in the case of the Bears flying along very roughly N-S through Irish controlled airspace, the 2 original aircraft that are sent up will need to be replaced (on station) by another 2 within probably 2 hours.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      Also factor in that in the case of the Bears flying along very roughly N-S through Irish controlled airspace, the 2 original aircraft that are sent up will need to be replaced (on station) by another 2 within probably 2 hours.
                      I'd build up the radar network and leave the expenditure for fighters to the RAF - or the Armée de'l Air

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by apc View Post
                        Just wondering has anyone any idea of what would be required in both manpower and logistics to keep 2 aircraft on alert ? Also If we were able to detect an belligerent aircraft at 400/500km out over the Atlantic, what sort of time frame in needed for intercept and at what distance would the intercept happen?
                        The two UK QRA's - north at Lossiemouth and south at Conningsby - use between 6 and 8 airframes each to keep two at R5 and two more at R30. However, that's the immediate pool, not the deep sevicing, attrition, and training requirements to keep those 6 to 8 aircraft and crews in a condition that would allow to operate the QRA at R5, R30, and R120.

                        Rough guess? 12+ aircraft to keep 6 at any form of readiness. 20 pilots and 100+ ground crew to get them flying, plus whatever is required to operate an airfield.

                        Thee one term you'll never used when QRA is being discussed is 'cheap'....

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                          The two UK QRA's - north at Lossiemouth and south at Conningsby - use between 6 and 8 airframes each to keep two at R5 and two more at R30. However, that's the immediate pool, not the deep sevicing, attrition, and training requirements to keep those 6 to 8 aircraft and crews in a condition that would allow to operate the QRA at R5, R30, and R120.

                          Rough guess? 12+ aircraft to keep 6 at any form of readiness. 20 pilots and 100+ ground crew to get them flying, plus whatever is required to operate an airfield.

                          Thee one term you'll never used when QRA is being discussed is 'cheap'....
                          I think thats the point, thinking we can have some sort of intercept capability with fast jets is wishful thinking.

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                          • #28
                            20 pilots would probably strip at least 2 existing squadrons of all their pilots

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by apc View Post
                              I think thats the point, thinking we can have some sort of intercept capability with fast jets is wishful thinking.
                              I suppose it depends on the parameters - within the current defence budget it seems to me that QRA is about as doable as building a new Death Star in your garden shed, however Ireland's economy is easily capable of supporting a defence budget within which QRA - almost certainly a leasing arrangement with Saab for the Gripe - would be entirely possible without impacting on the current roles and tasks.

                              That however is a political question...

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                              • #30
                                Depends on BREXIT

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