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Formal Agreement signed with RAF to defend iIish Airspace

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  • Formal Agreement signed with RAF to defend iIish Airspace



    It will be interesting to see the PANA Mick Wallace Clare Daly etc reaction to this

  • #2
    Irish defence forces

    Originally posted by Banner View Post
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ck-414646.html

    It will be interesting to see the PANA Mick Wallace Clare Daly etc reaction to this
    Those TD's you mention, paid and expensed by us, are demagogues and can largely be ignored as lacking National integrity or pride. Unfortunately, expenditure on Defence Forces has never been operationally integral to a complete Defence concept or a listable Defence threat. We continually tinker at the edges and fulfill peacetime objectives. We carry out certain missions on a first up best dressed scenario leaving behind a weaker capability.

    The intercept could be on an Aer Lingus plane, with somebody's relative on board, so maybe the decision is better taken elsewhere by COBRA.
    In the meantime a Defence Committee is needed to see through a sharpening of our Defence Forces cutting edge , certainly within our territory, including all territorial and adjacent waters.

    Comment


    • #3
      Front page of the examiner though. It has to raise a few questions.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

      Comment


      • #4
        this is all hardly a revelation - its an old story, a 15 year old story, its been talked about several times in the Irish media since 2001 and mentioned in the UK in an off-hand manner.

        to my recollection, it started in the early evening of 11th September 2001 - UK airspace had been closed to civilian traffic, we had AWACS, Tankers and 4 Tornado F3's on standing CAP with more on R5. Downing Street recieved a call from Bertie Ahern. he and Tony Blair spoke for less than 5 minutes - the gist of the conversation was 'if we have a problem, will you come?', and the reply was 'yes, we'll come'.

        to my understanding that was the substance of the 'agreement' for about 72 hours, and it was then formalised and fleshed out with an agreement over the lines of communication between the two respective ATC/Defence/Transport and Heads of Governments structures - it being realised early on that a system that went all the way up the Irish chain, over to the UK, and then all the way down the UK chain before RAF Tornado's were scrambled would simply take to long, and that all that would be achieved was the RAF flying very fast over a smoking hole in the ground in Dublin - who within the respective governments were authorised to ask for, and give assistance, and who was authorised to ask for, and order, an interception, as well as all/some of the post 'shit, what just happened' legal stuff.

        my very clear understanding was that the RAF was never happy with the set-up, they took the view that it was all far too long-winded and that the distances involved added to the beaurocracy - and, to be frank, the inexperience of the Irish state apparatus in dealing with air operations - meant that a successful intercept was incredibly unlikely. they certainly told the PM that, whether he told the Irish government, and whether they understood it...

        i believe that the arrangements were subsequently changed - the UK situation changed/tightened up, and get the impression that the UK-Irish arrangements rather whithered on the vine as the issue took its place in the 'too hard' box.

        the age of the story is noticable by the reference to the Tornado F3 - they went out of service in 2011...

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        • #5
          Notwithstanding all that you say above (And it may well be true that this is indeed old news and references procedures and process that metaphorically have lots of cobwebs on them) the significance of this article is entirely political.

          In short it will undoubtedly provoke some sort of response from the peace brigade referenced above. This could be along the lines of Dail Q’s demanding to know everything about this “secret defence agreement with the UK – threat to our neutrality etc” or a more paranoid shrieking about entering into a pact with the great Satan of US/UK/NATO behind the backs of the peace loving people of Ireland. All of which in my humble opinion would be very interesting in terms of the debate that would follow.

          In short, the great thing about this article is it exposes the lie at the heart of “Irish Neutrality”. Because if you are against having the RAF flying “emergency intercept” missions over Irish Airspace because it compromises our neutrality then the it implies support for the obvious alternative. Give the Irish state the means to police its own airspace. Which implies a significant increase in spending, investment in radar and a small FJ component for the Air Corps…

          Should be interesting to watch how this all plays out.

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          • #6
            I would be firmly of the belief that any potential 9/11 type scenario is much more likely to be heading the UK anyway and they wouldn't wait to be asked (agreement or not).

            Even in the unlikely event that the peace lobby decided we needed jet fighters to protect Irish neutrality they would then be giving out about the cost and manufacturer.

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            • #7
              On one of Prof. Brian Cox recent TV science shows he headed west from a UK airbase, chasing the sunset in a Typhoon T3. Once they reached irish Airspace they turned back, and Prof Brian asked the pilot "what would the Irish do if we kept going?" to which the pilot replied "send up a Cessna".
              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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              • #8
                its all to do with politics in Cork south central.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                  On one of Prof. Brian Cox recent TV science shows he headed west from a UK airbase, chasing the sunset in a Typhoon T3. Once they reached irish Airspace they turned back, and Prof Brian asked the pilot "what would the Irish do if we kept going?" to which the pilot replied "send up a Cessna".
                  Cue the EF being bounced by a fearsome Reims Rocket... screams and cameras cut.

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                  • #10
                    None of this is funny. Politically and elsewhere we have created a paucity of dealing with ANY major emergency on or close to our Island. Such emergencies will inevitably arise such as a cruise liner, with 4000 on board needing immediate evacuation 50 miles offshore. Not alone do we have a shortage of rescue units but what do we do with the rescued injured, sick, and dying since we diminished the number of Hospitals and nurses in favour of our new sporadic WORLD CLASS facilities?
                    There are still Tornado's retained by the RAF until 2019 for use in various roles, so it is still relevant to mention them as an intervention aircraft.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                      .....still Tornado's retained by the RAF until 2019 for use in various roles, so it is still relevant to mention them as an intervention aircraft.
                      If you want to send a GR4 to look for a non-responsive aircraft you're very welcome, but you may as well send Stevie Wonder to look for a needle in a haystack.

                      It's radar has a rudimentary A2A capability - good enough to find a tanker over the sea in the dark - but if it hasn't a rough idea where to start looking then it's on a hiding to nothing.

                      You could use GR4's as a point defence aircraft if, and only if, they were under the most effective AWACS or ground radar control, and that their task was limited to sitting overhead, being queued into the approaching aircraft by an other radar, and lobbing their - count them - 2 ASRAAM's at them when they got in range.

                      That's it. They don't form any part of the UK AD setup, and that's not going to change.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        I would be firmly of the belief that any potential 9/11 type scenario is much more likely to be heading the UK anyway and they wouldn't wait to be asked (agreement or not).

                        Even in the unlikely event that the peace lobby decided we needed jet fighters to protect Irish neutrality they would then be giving out about the cost and manufacturer.
                        The point is to nail them on that.

                        If they give out about agreements with the RAF, offer a realistic alternative or shut up.

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                        • #13
                          "The point is to nail them on that.

                          If they give out about agreements with the RAF, offer a realistic alternative or shut up. "

                          Exactly!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Banner View Post
                            "The point is to nail them on that.

                            If they give out about agreements with the RAF, offer a realistic alternative or shut up. "

                            Exactly!
                            But do you not realise that the nice man Mr Putin would never invade anybody (sic) ? After all everyone loves the Irish - we're cuddly and loveable and great craic. Islamic terrorists think we're grand lads after all and anyway if they did attack us it's only our own fault for cosying up to the nasty American Military/Industrial complex.

                            Trying to engage anyone to the left of Sean Barrett in Irish Politics on the subject of Defence and what neutrality really means is a one way ticket to a nervous breakdown. As a former senior Civil Servant in Finance once said to me - "there's no money in defence, there's no votes in defence and there's no interest in defence. End of story"
                            “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
                            ― Thucydides

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Shaqra View Post
                              But do you not realise that the nice man Mr Putin would never invade anybody (sic) ? After all everyone loves the Irish - we're cuddly and loveable and great craic. Islamic terrorists think we're grand lads after all and anyway if they did attack us it's only our own fault for cosying up to the nasty American Military/Industrial complex.

                              Trying to engage anyone to the left of Sean Barrett in Irish Politics on the subject of Defence and what neutrality really means is a one way ticket to a nervous breakdown. As a former senior Civil Servant in Finance once said to me - "there's no money in defence, there's no votes in defence and there's no interest in defence. End of story"
                              A sad but accurate post.

                              Comment

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