Which Barracks Should Close Next? (Part 2)

[ancientmariner]

every time I see one of these, someone wants to line their pockets somehow with state resources

The LDA was founded in 2018 to control the use and development of State Lands, some for housing. There are always agendas in these matters with unwished for consequences for some. Over the years Defence has lost much property and lands with no quid pro quo.

[Egbeygia]

The LDA was founded in 2018 to control the use and development of State Lands, some for housing. There are always agendas in these matters with unwished for consequences for some. Over the years Defence has lost much property and lands with no quid pro quo.

Would money not constitute a quid pro quo?

[trellheim]

Would money not constitute a quid pro quo?

to take one example, Rockbrae house in Bray is being handed over. Ask about your quid pro quo there.

[Egbeygia]

to take one example, Rockbrae house in Bray is being handed over. Ask about your quid pro quo there.

Rockbrae House is about as relevant to the 21st Century DF as the Walls of Dublin. So good riddance would be my first thought.

The Army, Reserve and Permanent, will never truly develop as long at thry remain wedded to geographic locations bequeathed to them by the departing British, many of which are totally unfit for a modern military. Accommodation unfit for human habitation,catering facilities that are truly shocking, even basics like access for Tpt Corps ar tics being unsuitable, sometimes even impossible.

[na grohmiti]

The disposal of former Defence force property has been a shining example of how the DoD does business. Sady it's not their fault, as (mis)management and disposal of property is down to the OPW.
I could start listing off former DF properties not far outside my own 5km zone that when passed from DF hands, vanished into the ether. Now neither used nor owned. The exceptions being the Old Army Apprentice school in Naas (which you'll struggle to find today), Griffith Barracks and Murphy Barracks Ballincollig.
Otherwise there are numerous recently vacated properties, that lie idle, in various states of disrepair. Kildare Barracks being the worst offender, and an insult to those who served within.

[DeV]

to take one example, Rockbrae house in Bray is being handed over. Ask about your quid pro quo there.

It’s not used so might as well be

Rockbrae House is about as relevant to the 21st Century DF as the Walls of Dublin. So good riddance would be my first thought.

The Army, Reserve and Permanent, will never truly develop as long at thry remain wedded to geographic locations bequeathed to them by the departing British, many of which are totally unfit for a modern military. Accommodation unfit for human habitation,catering facilities that are truly shocking, even basics like access for Tpt Corps ar tics being unsuitable, sometimes even impossible.

DoD won’t maintain the barracks it does have never mind built new ones

The disposal of former Defence force property has been a shining example of how the DoD does business. Sady it's not their fault, as (mis)management and disposal of property is down to the OPW.
I could start listing off former DF properties not far outside my own 5km zone that when passed from DF hands, vanished into the ether. Now neither used nor owned. The exceptions being the Old Army Apprentice school in Naas (which you'll struggle to find today), Griffith Barracks and Murphy Barracks Ballincollig.
Otherwise there are numerous recently vacated properties, that lie idle, in various states of disrepair. Kildare Barracks being the worst offender, and an insult to those who served within.

Not sure about OPW being response, a quick google says the Minister signed the contract for the sale of Clancy

[na grohmiti]

Rockbrae House is about as relevant to the 21st Century DF as the Walls of Dublin. So good riddance would be my first thought.

The Army, Reserve and Permanent, will never truly develop as long at thry remain wedded to geographic locations bequeathed to them by the departing British, many of which are totally unfit for a modern military. Accommodation unfit for human habitation,catering facilities that are truly shocking, even basics like access for Tpt Corps ar tics being unsuitable, sometimes even impossible.

It's fair to say, regarding access by road to the largest Barracks in Munster, is it makes it easier to defend.
Well done to the bright person who thought in the LATE 1990s a second entrance onto alternative routes might be useful. I hope he was either (a) promoted or (b) got a better paying civvy job.
In the meantime the best thing that has happened to most buildings in use has been the bulldozer. reluctance to modify buildings from the time of the British is usually only fixed when said building falls down of its own accord, or goes on fire. Even then, there is no guarantee. It must have been at least 20 years between the old gym in Collins Barracks burning down and a new one being built.
When Fermoy closed, everyone assumed the units based there would move to the nearby Kilworth camp. An easy solution. A huge green field site, on the main Cork - Dublin road, with plenty of room for new buildings and no neighbours to inconvenience. Nope. Instead move the Cav into Cork City (20 miles away) and squeeze them into whatever corner hadn't fallen down yet. Later on, buildings for vehicles were built. (but only because the Gunners were evicted from Ballincollig too). Plans made to build a super prison on DF land in Kilworth instead. Thankfully it came to nothing.
At the price of alterations to make room for a regiment and a squadron in Collins Barracks, you could have built a modern fit for purpose new barracks (with airstrip) in Kilworth. You still could. On Google earth you can still see opposite the current camp where a large complex of huts and tents once stood when the brits used it. Now the sheep have it.

[trellheim]

Rockbrae House is about as relevant to the 21st Century DF as the Walls of Dublin. So good riddance would be my first thought.

My point was regarding the quid pro quo - money changing hands - rather than its relevance.

[Egbeygia]

My point was regarding the quid pro quo - money changing hands - rather than its relevance.

So you are advocating inflating the price of badly needed social housing on an underutilised site that could otherwise be transferred for free? Or are you looking for an alternative facility where the AR can meet up, dress up and play soldier in the Bray area, despite re-orgs, Single Force Concept, etc.?

[DeV]

So you are advocating inflating the price of badly needed social housing on an underutilised site that could otherwise be transferred for free? Or are you looking for an alternative facility where the AR can meet up, dress up and play soldier in the Bray area, despite re-orgs, Single Force Concept, etc.?

Don’t need to inflate the price

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.iris...018%3fmode=amp

A much smaller site (1/4 of the size) across the road from Rockbrae House was valued at €2.25 million 4 years ago (or be it with planning) with a not dissimilar “period home”

It’s my understanding that the site is essentially being gifted to Wicklow County Council

[Bravo20]

So you are advocating inflating the price of badly needed social housing on an underutilised site that could otherwise be transferred for free? Or are you looking for an alternative facility where the AR can meet up, dress up and play soldier in the Bray area, despite re-orgs, Single Force Concept, etc.?

What he is advocating is that the DF should get something for an asset is disposing of. It is irrelevant that is currently an under utilised asset in the DF. It has a value to somebody. If it is transferred to another department or agency then there should be a corresponding transfer of funds or assets from that agency.

[Egbeygia]

What he is advocating is that the DF should get something for an asset is disposing of. It is irrelevant that is currently an under utilised asset in the DF. It has a value to somebody. If it is transferred to another department or agency then there should be a corresponding transfer of funds or assets from that agency.

So one state agency should pay market value for a site to another state agency. So by that logic should the DoD in turn pay say Dublin Port for a dedicated naval berth, Shannon Airport Authority for Airside facilities, Coillte for an expansion to Kilworth, Kilbride etc, or is in only your preferred department that requires payment?

[trellheim]

So one state agency should pay market value for a site to another state agency. So by that logic should the DoD in turn pay say Dublin Port for a dedicated naval berth, Shannon Airport Authority for Airside facilities, Coillte for an expansion to Kilworth, Kilbride etc, or is in only your preferred department that requires payment?

And why not ? Assets have value. If DOD wanted to expand into Coillte land you'd be damn sure money would change hands. That money could fund ARW allowance, RDF gratuity, you name it. Every single time the DOD disposes of land it does it for a song and someone else reaps the value - look at Griffith, Clancy, Beggars Bush , Colaiste Caoimhin, Ballincollig, Cavan .... too long a list.

That zero-value accounting you're banging on about ? mugs game. State knows damn well if it pays DOD for land where the money is going.

[Egbeygia]

And why not ? Assets have value. If DOD wanted to expand into Coillte land you'd be damn sure money would change hands. That money could fund ARW allowance, RDF gratuity, you name it. Every single time the DOD disposes of land it does it for a song and someone else reaps the value - look at Griffith, Clancy, Beggars Bush , Colaiste Caoimhin, Ballincollig, Cavan .... too long a list.

That zero-value accounting you're banging on about ? mugs game. State knows damn well if it pays DOD for land where the money is going.

Please tell me more about this "song" that DF lands were sold for?

Is it the same €100 million song as this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-...-100m-1.310599

Or are you instead proposing that DoD/DF get in the business of office/retail park/apartment development?

I would hate for facts to get in the way of your argument, but sometimes people on here need to be called out. The current value (2021) of these sites was generated by the private investment and DoD got an appropriate price at the time for what are essentially just sites, same as any other, or even worse in that they came without planning permission and often with century-plus old buildings requiring retention and restoration.

So again I ask, what is to be gained by charging the LDA, or any City/Council for DF lands surplus to requirements that could otherwise be transferred for free thus eliminating a massive element of Irish building costs?

[trellheim]

I would hate for facts to get in the way of your argument, but sometimes people on here need to be called out. The current value (2021) of these sites was generated by the private investment and DoD got an appropriate price at the time for what are essentially just sites, same as any other, or even worse in that they came without planning permission and often with century-plus old buildings requiring retention and restoration.

So again I ask, what is to be gained by charging the LDA, or any City/Council for DF lands surplus to requirements that could otherwise be transferred for free thus eliminating a massive element of Irish building costs?

Those sites were got for fk-all and are now worth several multiples. The DF needs the money. end of story. Selling rockbrae on the open market would raise badly needed money to fund the DF. Similar silly arguments like yours would justify CBB and McKee being disposed of for nothing. "transferred for free" .... as I said mugs game where only the DF loses. Are you a member of the DF perchance ?

[Egbeygia]

Those sites were got for fk-all and are now worth several multiples. The DF needs the money. end of story. Selling rockbrae on the open market would raise badly needed money to fund the DF. Similar silly arguments like yours would justify CBB and McKee being disposed of for nothing. "transferred for free" .... as I said mugs game where only the DF loses. Are you a member of the DF perchance ?

While I'm not sure how relevant my service is to this debate, I can confirm that I am a commissioned member of the PDF, you know someone who the job for a living not a hobby or for likes on social media. While we're at it, are you a member of the PDF?

And yes the DF needs money, but charging other state agencies inflated market values for assets that are of either declining utility or none at all, hardly makes more sense that getting an increased budget contribution from central government.

[Egbeygia]

Those sites were got for fk-all and are now worth several multiples.

But you do know that is not true no matter how many times you say it. Take Clancy Barracks as a simple example, it's current value is as a result of the private money invested in the 700+ apartments constructed on site, latterly by Kennedy Wilson. That's how investment generally works. It's current value has absolutely nothing to with any action of the DoD or DF. Unless of course you think the DF should be building apartments for sale?

[na grohmiti]

And why not ? Assets have value. If DOD wanted to expand into Coillte land you'd be damn sure money would change hands. That money could fund ARW allowance, RDF gratuity, you name it. Every single time the DOD disposes of land it does it for a song and someone else reaps the value - look at Griffith, Clancy, Beggars Bush , Colaiste Caoimhin, Ballincollig, Cavan .... too long a list.

That zero-value accounting you're banging on about ? mugs game. State knows damn well if it pays DOD for land where the money is going.

The difficulty handing over an unused portion of Tralee Barracks to the DoJ for construction of a new courthouse is a prime example of this.

[DeV]

While I'm not sure how relevant my service is to this debate, I can confirm that I am a commissioned member of the PDF, you know someone who the job for a living not a hobby or for likes on social media. While we're at it, are you a member of the PDF?

And yes the DF needs money, but charging other state agencies inflated market values for assets that are of either declining utility or none at all, hardly makes more sense that getting an increased budget contribution from central government.

Remember that the money from barracks sales was supposed to be ring fenced for reinvestment in the DF

Remember that other Departments that did decentralisation are currently still paying for unused offices

Where land is transferred the DF should receive something in return, ideally the market value, if not the CPO rate or why not for example land elsewhere.

I’m sure Wicklow Co Council have some land that could be useful in the Glen or Kilbride areas

[ancientmariner]

But you do know that is not true no matter how many times you say it. Take Clancy Barracks as a simple example, it's current value is as a result of the private money invested in the 700+ apartments constructed on site, latterly by Kennedy Wilson. That's how investment generally works. It's current value has absolutely nothing to with any action of the DoD or DF. Unless of course you think the DF should be building apartments for sale?

You might be missing the point. When the Brits left , almost a hundred years ago, they left us a country wide range of Military structures, training grounds and lands. All lands and buildings plus the grounds they stand on have value, not least to the sitting tenant. The condition of barracks is largely due to National choices taking advantage of traditional Military deference to Authority. As time lapsed many in Corporate and political circles saw the chance of major added value by repurposing "Surplus" lands and barracks. So, over years Military assets were spirited away, troops were moved, facilities disappeared, and somebody got rich or expanding their ownerships of scarce valuable lands. As an example, all the Naval/Military playing fields in Cork Harbour near Black Prince pier were absorbed by CHC.
When Clancy was given away, the Quid Pro Quo, was to provide a similar resource elsewhere. The income from Clancy must be in the order of a million Euro p.m. The problem with paring back Military resources is that downsizing becomes the norm every time Governments put it on the autopsy table.

[na grohmiti]

But you do know that is not true no matter how many times you say it. Take Clancy Barracks as a simple example, it's current value is as a result of the private money invested in the 700+ apartments constructed on site, latterly by Kennedy Wilson. That's how investment generally works. It's current value has absolutely nothing to with any action of the DoD or DF. Unless of course you think the DF should be building apartments for sale?

Best of luck buying one of the derelict sites in Dublin to build a house on. You may think it's worth f-all until you develop it, but the market says otherwise. And you can take that from me, someone who is here for the likes, but who's profession currently involves dealing with the value of numerous sites worth f-all. Tell it to the Bank.

Even if you only watched the movie "The Field" and didn't go to the trouble of reading the book by J.B Keane, you would know that every property has value, far in excess of it's appearance. Property is an asset. The Govt property portfolio are assets. Like all assets, you can choose to keep them for yourself, or sell them for their value.
If we give a plot of land worth nothing to us to another govt department, for no notional fee or exchange, and that department decides later on to sell it to a civilian developer for a large sum, are you saying we lost nothing?
Because my friend that is not how things work in the real world.

[na grohmiti]

While I'm not sure how relevant my service is to this debate, I can confirm that I am a commissioned member of the PDF, you know someone who the job for a living not a hobby or for likes on social media. While we're at it, are you a member of the PDF?

That's a big chip you are hauling there. Brown shoes or black?
Mod: Play the ball not the man

[Egbeygia]

My point in trying to make is that many of these facilities were not given away as people continue to claim. The Clancy Barracks example being the most obvious one. It was sold for €25.4million in 2003 by the DoD, Ballincollig the same year for €41million. Both sales were to private investors. So my point remains, should the state be competing with private investors on the open market with much deeper pockets to buy land from itself when it could be transferred for nothing for the common good? Yes of course the DF should look for something in return, land, investment etc, but it is the fault of DFHQ and/or DoD for not stipulating that in the contract for disposal.

[trellheim]

While we're at it, are you a member of the PDF?

Commissioned officer of the RDF, since you ask. I didn't ask if you were PDF or RDF, Commissioned or enlisted.

[DeV]

My point in trying to make is that many of these facilities were not given away as people continue to claim. The Clancy Barracks example being the most obvious one. It was sold for €25.4million in 2003 by the DoD, Ballincollig the same year for €41million. Both sales were to private investors. So my point remains, should the state be competing with private investors on the open market with much deeper pockets to buy land from itself when it could be transferred for nothing for the common good? Yes of course the DF should look for something in return, land, investment etc, but it is the fault of DFHQ and/or DoD for not stipulating that in the contract for disposal.

As you state yourself, DoD received money in return for land for Clancy and Ballincollig. Could they have got more for them? Probably but they did receive payment

Rockbrae House is being gifted to Wicklow Co Co by DoD. It is surplus to DoD requirements? Yes
Are we in a housing crisis? Yes
Are we in a DF crisis? Yes

Should the DF receive some kind of reward for this transfer? Yes