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Thread: Soldier 2017

  1. #551
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    In a world where we are being banjoed with duties and work and low pay the DF responds in 2020, with a global pandemic going with

    Swagger Sticks for BSMs and for the rest of you

    "I know lets get rid of the pockets off the shirts"


    inspired stuff lads
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  3. #552
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Both the Ceremonial Cane and newly designed uniform were in play long before the Pandemic so not a fair assessment.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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  5. #553
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    Canes have been in use in the Cadet School for many many decades.

    Cane drill was on the syllabus.

    Invariably, the canes were shorter by the end of each Class as they were just wooden dowels with a 9mm casing on each end and the dowels got broken easily

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  7. #554
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Looks like the lopsided DPM shirt issue has been addressed. Pictures up on social media of Air Corps recruits wearing DPM shirts with UBAC pockets on BOTH sleeves.

    And before someone says it.No.They were not UBACS. Recruits are not scaled for them and UBACS doesn't come with a tricolour stitched on.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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  9. #555
    Retired sapper smegers's Avatar
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    While that is an improvement why wouldn't they just put it on the blanking panel then it can be standard across multiple items of uniform.

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  11. #556
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smegers View Post
    While that is an improvement why wouldn't they just put it on the blanking panel then it can be standard across multiple items of uniform.
    I like your thinking.And you are right.We should have gone this route from the start.
    I guarantee it's because some high ranker wanted to keep the "smart" look of the old shirt because he liked wearing it.Couldn't have a Field/working Uniform being practical now could we
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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  13. #557
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Couldn't have a Field/working Uniform being practical now could we
    your absolutely right, cos taking pockets off them is the way to go for sure. It sounds like I'm sniping here but this is brutally badly thought out every other shirt and tunic has pockets in it
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  14. #558
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Looks like the lopsided DPM shirt issue has been addressed. Pictures up on social media of Air Corps recruits wearing DPM shirts with UBAC pockets on BOTH sleeves.

    And before someone says it.No.They were not UBACS. Recruits are not scaled for them and UBACS doesn't come with a tricolour stitched on.
    Social media? FB, Twitter or Flickr?
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  15. #559
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Social media? FB, Twitter or Flickr?
    FB. One of the Cosantoir Photographers personal page. Nice gallery of pics. All the Air Corps recruits had new style shirts,smocks and trousers. The rest of us are a miss mash.
    New smock looks really short when worn with CEFO.I can see it riding up when kneeling .No protection on wet ground for your tush.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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  17. #560
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    MOD: NSV DPM Posts moved to that thread in the NS section. Please keep this thread to the thread topic.Thanks.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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  19. #561
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Air Corps recruits doing field training. Note the 2019 pattern DPM shirt with UBACS pockets on both sleeves.

    123072087_4138538079491261_3171990682760655450_o.jpg123136897_4138537946157941_2851883095116110655_o.jpg123192680_4138537966157939_349543067916629306_o.jpg
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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  21. #562
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    A long time since I heard of an Air Corps recruit platoon.
    What is the intended contents of these pockets? Good that they are balanced,but they seem a bit balloony.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  22. #563
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    What is the intended contents of these pockets? Good that they are balanced,but they seem a bit balloony.
    Here's the thing.Most of us will only ever use those pockets to carry our phone or a notebook.A wallet at most. They are really only replacing the chest pockets that have been omitted on the new shirts to keep the females happy and to cut costs by buying one "unisex" shirt rather than separate male and female shirts.

    The only people I ever see using them in a tactical training scenario are PDF recruits and RDF. Everyone else has UBACS. Still an improvement on the 2018 shirts though.We went from having three pockets to one and a half Hardly user friendly.

    As for the balloon/batwing pocket effect. The brits found that out the hard way when they introduced the exact same pocket design on the 2011 PCS uniform. Pockets stick out too far when packed out and get caught on webbing etc when donning/doffing. They quickly changed from having a single large piece of velcro under the blanking panel to a "window frame " style strip of velcro which gives the pocket less rigidity. Never work here though. The Army Loooooooooooves its velcro panels. Every shape and size of badge is being worn on UBACS as no clear policy on what to wear(or not) and how to wear it was ever decided on . I have seen tricolours worn on either sleeve(left sleeve people FFS) Rank marking on front of or behind the tricolour. Rank marking on the right sleeve. Badges sewn to the blanking plates(their true purpose) or just velcroed on directly. Zap badges, Sniper badges,PARA wings the list goes on.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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  24. #564
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    And I assume this new shirt looks shite on parade?

  25. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    And I assume this new shirt looks shite on parade?
    Once you iron it flat and sew the corners down it'll be fine on parade....
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  26. #566
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Once you iron it flat and sew the corners down it'll be fine on parade....
    So minimising the potential use of the pockets and defeating the whole object

  27. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    So minimising the potential use of the pockets and defeating the whole object
    Now you're gettin it.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  28. #568
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Finally a clear picture of the 2019 shirt in use. Note the height of the sleeve pockets compared to the 2018 model. Also a prime example in this picture of the different ways badges and flashes are being worn.Also Why have a tricolour stitched to the shirt when the shirt has velcro for badge attachment? The badges on both sleeves are lopsided.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

  29. #569
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    There was nothing wrong with the original material or design

  30. #570
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    There was nothing wrong with the original material or design
    There was.On both counts. The material on the collars on the second type(not elvis collar) shirt would wear away over time and the angled chest pockets became redundant once GSBA/battlevest became a thing.Hence the move to ripstop material and flat ,and then no, chest pockets.

    One could argue that with the advent of UBACS we could go back to the original design shirt as it's supposed to be part of Bks dress now.The Brits did that.Cheaper too as their Bks shirt isn't IRR treated. Of course that would cause a snag as to what PDF recruits and AR personnel would wear in the field in warm weather as they aren't scaled for UBACS.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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  32. #571
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    The material on the collars on the second type(not elvis collar) shirt would wear away over time and the angled chest pockets became redundant once GSBA/battlevest became a thing.Hence the move to ripstop material and flat ,and then no, chest pockets.
    If we are discussing shirts

    1) I never saw the shirt wear you mention and you'd never wear the shirt in the field it was always smock and tshirt for me anyway
    2) UBACS seems to do the biz for GSBA and BV and my experience wearing the shirt under the body armour

    none of this is a reason to remove the pockets off the DPM shirt
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  33. #572
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    There was.On both counts. The material on the collars on the second type(not elvis collar) shirt would wear away over time and the angled chest pockets became redundant once GSBA/battlevest became a thing.Hence the move to ripstop material and flat ,and then no, chest pockets.

    One could argue that with the advent of UBACS we could go back to the original design shirt as it's supposed to be part of Bks dress now.The Brits did that.Cheaper too as their Bks shirt isn't IRR treated. Of course that would cause a snag as to what PDF recruits and AR personnel would wear in the field in warm weather as they aren't scaled for UBACS.
    Look at the shirt material now compared to what I was initially issued. Really really warm even in an office/classroom which is not good. If it’s rip stop is there a need for it as it’s supposed to be barracks wear?

    Is it the buttons or the pockets themselves that create an issue?

    Also the pockets on the newer shirts are useless compared to the previous shirt.

    We have been left with a shirt with no pockets (to allow for field wear) that isn’t suitable for field wear and isn’t used for field wear because the majority are issued a suitable alternative. And looks odd when worn in barracks.

  34. #573
    Lt General ODIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Of course that would cause a snag as to what PDF recruits and AR personnel would wear in the field in warm weather as they aren't scaled for UBACS.
    Change scale of issue?
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

  35. #574
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    If we are discussing shirts

    1) I never saw the shirt wear you mention and you'd never wear the shirt in the field it was always smock and tshirt for me anyway
    2) UBACS seems to do the biz for GSBA and BV and my experience wearing the shirt under the body armour

    none of this is a reason to remove the pockets off the DPM shirt
    1/ Perhaps because you didn't wear it as much as someone who wears it everyday???.Trust me. It happened. I used to do the same(smock/t-shirt) when the DPMS first came out.Most of us did. Until we copped that the shirt was more than just a shirt it was cut like a lightweight jacket(Incidentally the Brits called theirs Jackets and wore them tucked in like a shirt). I still did smock/t-shirt in winter when GSBA became a thing.
    2/ It does. I would never wear a shirt with either again.



    Look at the shirt material now compared to what I was initially issued. Really really warm even in an office/classroom which is not good. If it’s rip stop is there a need for it as it’s supposed to be barracks wear?
    Glad to say the 2018 shirts and up are made from the new lighter weight material(same as the smock/trousers). I hated the 2010 -2017 shirts.Especially the 2012s which were like a shiny plastic bag. The 2018s are sooooooooo much more comfortable even if they look a little strange. Ripstop wasn't introduced just to stop rips in the field.It makes the material stronger and less liable to wear through.I never had a single issue with the collars on the 2010-2017 shirts thanks to the ripstop. The right underarm? Now that's a different story. Nametag velcro ends rub against the right sleeve and wear down the material. A former SNCO at my callsigns 2010 shirt got so bad he wore a complete hole in the sleeve. Never an issue with the pre 2010 shirt as the velcro was angled away from the arm/armpit.

    Is it the buttons or the pockets themselves that create an issue?
    Bit of both. Buttons are not good under armour.They dig in and can also be a secondary shrapnel hazard in certain circumstances. The pockets were an issue for the females.So naturally the whole DF changed to accommodate the minority
    Also the pockets on the newer shirts are useless compared to the previous shirt.
    Are you referring to the original design pockets vs the flat chest pockets or the flat chest pockets vs the new style sleeve pockets?

    We have been left with a shirt with no pockets (to allow for field wear) that isn’t suitable for field wear and isn’t used for field wear because the majority are issued a suitable alternative. And looks odd when worn in barracks.
    No.We have left with a shirt with no chest pockets to keep the females happy that is primarily intended for Bks wear but has to be used in the field by certain users by virtue of the fact they are not issued anything else. The sleeve pockets were a compromise.Remember that the trial 2017 Ptn shirt only had a pend pocket and nothing else. The right sleeve UBACS style pocket was a bodge on after people complained and the UBACS style pocket on both sleeve was brought about after people complained again.And we still didn't get that right as because someone has insisted on leaving the Tricolour patch in it's traditional position which has led to the pockets having to be placed lower on the sleeves. FFS people the sky won't fall if we move the tricolour onto the pocket velcro panel!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    Change scale of issue?
    I agree. RDFRA should be lobbying for an expanded AR scale of issue. One UBACS after 18 Months service would be perfectly reasonable.Boonie hat needs to be on the scale as well.Ridiculous it's not after all this time. Having said that be careful what you wish for.The latest variant is gank
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

  36. #575
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    The pockets were an issue for the females.

    Are you referring to the original design pockets vs the flat chest pockets or the flat chest pockets vs the new style sleeve pockets?
    https://images.app.goo.gl/WmP9fg9sC8xY1QQ36 These were useful pockets

    https://images.app.goo.gl/LSENnWDv6HTuHp2K7 These are not and afaik females only had an issue with these

    No.We have left with a shirt with no chest pockets to keep the females happy that is primarily intended for Bks wear but has to be used in the field by certain users by virtue of the fact they are not issued anything else. The sleeve pockets were a compromise.Remember that the trial 2017 Ptn shirt only had a pend pocket and nothing else. The right sleeve UBACS style pocket was a bodge on after people complained and the UBACS style pocket on both sleeve was brought about after people complained again.And we still didn't get that right as because someone has insisted on leaving the Tricolour patch in it's traditional position which has led to the pockets having to be placed lower on the sleeves. FFS people the sky won't fall if we move the tricolour onto the pocket velcro panel!!
    Sh*te for barracks and field

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