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  1. #26
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    It would be of course impossible to qualify fully in the other branches of the NS. Then again, NSR personnel can only go far in the seaman's branch being able to possible cover the basic and intermediate task performed by an A/Sea.

    I have wondered why a similarly basic level of training couldn't be achived as a Commop or Supply. There are AR CIS units and clearly they are never going to be able to spend the same time in role or go on the same courses as their PDF counterparts.

    The NSR is receiving more opportunities of late with regards courses being run and training but it will need to prove itself. If even more fresh enthusiastic blood joins in the next few recruitment campaigns, who knows what could happen....

    The NS Commop training is fairly long in duration. 14 weeks basic followed by 12 weeks on the job + taskbook followed by another 4 weeks.

    Thats 7 months full time training.

    Is that achievable by an NSR member who only gets 14 odd mandays a year paid?.

    Is there scope for a NSR specific Commop Course?.

    Who would deliver it and what would it comprise of?.


    Supplies should be a straightforward enough one so i wouldn't see many issues with that.

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  3. #27
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    The NS Commop training is fairly long in duration. 14 weeks basic followed by 12 weeks on the job + taskbook followed by another 4 weeks.

    Thats 7 months full time training.

    Is that achievable by an NSR member who only gets 14 odd mandays a year paid?.

    Is there scope for a NSR specific Commop Course?.

    Who would deliver it and what would it comprise of?.


    Supplies should be a straightforward enough one so i wouldn't see many issues with that.
    I'm not suggesting that that the NSR member be trained up to the same standard. Just that they can perform some of the basic dueties. of course it's not achievable.

    I'm not AR but how do the reserve CIS units bring their soldiers up to the same PDF standard? I'm assuming they don't but it's acceptable because of the limitations of reserve service.

  4. #28
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    I havent seen the NSR carry out duties in a good few years.

    From what im led to believe, there were a number that didn't turn up for whatever reason leaving the Duty Watch short.

    The uncertainty of having a full duty watch led to the ceasing of said duties.

    .
    I am always fascinated at this being used as an excuse not to use RDF. It is as if a member of the PDF never failed to turn up for a duty before and that contingency plans aren't in place to deal with just such an eventuality.

    What would be interesting to add to this statement would be that the percentage of RDF members tasked with a duty that didn't show up. Is it 50%, 25%, 5% or did it just happen the once.
    Last edited by Bravo20; 20th January 2020 at 11:03.

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  6. #29
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    I am always fascinated at this being used as an excuse not to use RDF. It is as if a member of the PDF never failed to turn up for a duty before and that contingency plans aren't in place to deal with just such an eventuality.

    What would be interesting to add to this statement would be that the percentage of RDF members tasked with a duty that didn't show up. Is it 50%, 25%, 5% or did it just happen the once.
    I'd also be interested to know if it was a once off thing or a reoccurence. In saying that, there are unreliable individuals in any organisation and there would be greater sanction for a PDF no show than an RDF member doing the same assuming there was no good reason for not showing.

  7. #30
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    True but in both instances lead to needing a replacement on the day.

    Reservists can still be charged, while they are unlikely to be imprisoned or fined, it would still affect their career and promotion prospects. It would certainly impact on them being selected for any further duties. If I was tasked with providing a panel of reservists for duties, the quickest way off the panel would be not to turn up for the duty, I'd never select them again. There are a lot of dependable reservists out there who turn up when and where required.

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  9. #31
    Recruit Poiuyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    I am always fascinated at this being used as an excuse not to use RDF. It is as if a member of the PDF never failed to turn up for a duty before and that contingency plans aren't in place to deal with just such an eventuality.
    In my experience, I never ever saw such an occurance - RDF always showed up for the duty, the few that we got. I remember even seeing 1 extra soldier being told to show up in case someone else didn't show - they always showed up as well. We all knew it was a stick that the PDF would beat us with so we never gave them the opportunity.

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  11. #32
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Regimentals are regularly (i.e most weeks) undertaken by RDF in my location, I have heard of no fuss.

    As to the question of RDF-friendly versions of certain syllabi there is an open mind and a willingness to look at cases, in my experience.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  12. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    Regimentals are regularly (i.e most weeks) undertaken by RDF in my location, I have heard of no fuss.

    As to the question of RDF-friendly versions of certain syllabi there is an open mind and a willingness to look at cases, in my experience.
    Indeed.
    I attended a number of cavalry corps courses in my time. Normally full time courses in the region of 10 weeks duration.
    With the cooperation of our colleagues the PDF instructors, the curriculum was broken into a combination of weekends and classrooms on parade nights. We covered all the course work and on both occasions qualified after being tested by the same people who assessed our colleagues in the PDF.
    It can be done, if people want it to be done. It may take longer than the PDF counterpart, but in my experience anyone willing g to commit to the RDF will happily give however much time is necessary to.become a more useful asset within the organisation.
    I started my DR 154 course in the dark nights of February. We threw every weekend and parade night at it until our assessment in June. It can be done. I'm sure someone here can tell me how long the course should take in the PDF.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  14. #34
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    I am always fascinated at this being used as an excuse not to use RDF. It is as if a member of the PDF never failed to turn up for a duty before and that contingency plans aren't in place to deal with just such an eventuality.

    What would be interesting to add to this statement would be that the percentage of RDF members tasked with a duty that didn't show up. Is it 50%, 25%, 5% or did it just happen the once.
    Before I respond to your main point I am just going to put it on the record that we have AR pers doing duties at my callsign on a regular basis now.Especially when we are stretched with TRR's and OPS and they all show up with no probs.It has been good for both sides due to "habitual association" and has gone a long way in knocking down barriers.
    Despite assertions that RDF pers can just be charged if they don't show up.That's fine in theory but in practice is often unworkable. How many RDF sub unit commanders have the knowledge and experience to deal with orders? Let's face it they may hear them once in their time in appointment,if at all. So most avoid them like the plague as the potential for a legal foul up is high if you don't know what you are doing.
    PDF Officers would expect a defaulter to show up for orders during working hours.Would they even show up?Who is going to compel them? RDF are only covered by Military law during training not 24/7 like the PDF. But of course we all know this already.

    Simply put. PDF Officers and SNCO's traditionally did not trust RDF pers to show up for important tasks as there was no real sanction they could hit them with if they didn't. That is changing slowly,mainly due to AR pers being increasingly more reliable but all it takes if one rogue element to not bother to show up and it undo's all the hardwork of those who do.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  16. #35
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    People keep saying that they don't trust RDF to show up for duties yet evidence shows that they do time and time again. I could say that it is more likely that a PDF person would fail to turn up for a duty but that would be stating something without any actual evidence

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  18. #36
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    People keep saying that they don't trust RDF to show up for duties yet evidence shows that they do time and time again. I could say that it is more likely that a PDF person would fail to turn up for a duty but that would be stating something without any actual evidence
    Would you like some ketchup with those chips? Read my post again. The attitude you speak of is changing,but slowly as more and more RDF are doing Regimentals.Mainly due to the state most PDF units are in numbers wise. In fact I dare say we would be hard pushed to survive WITHOUT our Reservists these days.Especially at busy times.
    However the fact remains that there is very very little you can do if a rostered RDF member fails to show up. Old school Officers and SNCO's are only too aware of this and perhaps have been burned in the past. So unfortunately the attitude still exists in some quarters.

    You can think what you like but that's the simple truth.Right or wrong.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  19. #37
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    My location is crying out for RDF to do more duties

  20. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    It would be of course impossible to qualify fully in the other branches of the NS. Then again, NSR personnel can only go far in the seaman's branch being able to possible cover the basic and intermediate task performed by an A/Sea.

    I have wondered why a similarly basic level of training couldn't be achived as a Commop or Supply. There are AR CIS units and clearly they are never going to be able to spend the same time in role or go on the same courses as their PDF counterparts.

    The NSR is receiving more opportunities of late with regards courses being run and training but it will need to prove itself. If even more fresh enthusiastic blood joins in the next few recruitment campaigns, who knows what could happen....
    The utilisation and training of Reservists is a simple concept that needs to be formalised with a view to providing replacement personnel in all levels of expertise. Other Forces do it, and put considerable effort in doing so. Naval Services have an additional capability in that they can do a higher level of "on the job" training in operational ships . The main requirement is to get your Reservists induction to include a realistic training module of 10 weeks basic, and 10 weeks Branch or specialist training. The Department must take care of bringing employers on board to facilitate the release of Reservists for training. If we cannot do it or see the way forward then we shouldn't be in the business we are in.

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  22. #39
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    Keep in mind, 10 weeks training usually amounts to a total of 50 days. Which could translate to 20 weekends, plus 2 weeks full time training. It can be done if the will is there.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  24. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The contribution from the Naval officer about the international importance of protecting the undersea cables on the west coast was discussed in the Dail yesterday.
    The minister responded by suggesting it was the responsibility of AGS or the Dept of Communications...
    The only way to guard sea bed assets is by strategically monitoring their integrity and being aware of possible threats. The only agencies to police assets, or damage them, are likely to be naval Units. The Russians have a large submarine whose manned Remote Vessel is another 1000 tonne submarine fitted with arms for picking up things or snipping them as appropriate. It might be beyond the Gardai to intervene. Another job for the MRV and a step towards a jointedness capability for our forces.

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  26. #41
    Sergeant Major EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Keep in mind, 10 weeks training usually amounts to a total of 50 days. Which could translate to 20 weekends, plus 2 weeks full time training. It can be done if the will is there.
    This is similar to how the Royal Navy Reserve do things, they have:
    Part one: 20 training nights at your local unit, or weekends at other units all across the UK. This basic phase covers naval knowledge, parade training and building your physical fitness.

    Part two: 2 weeks of training at HMS Raleigh in Cornwall, covering weapon handling, sea survival swimming and an overnight exercise on Dartmoor. For an officer role, this period of training will take place at Britannia Royal Naval College (BRNC).

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  28. #42
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    This is similar to how the Royal Navy Reserve do things, they have:
    Part one: 20 training nights at your local unit, or weekends at other units all across the UK. This basic phase covers naval knowledge, parade training and building your physical fitness.

    Part two: 2 weeks of training at HMS Raleigh in Cornwall, covering weapon handling, sea survival swimming and an overnight exercise on Dartmoor. For an officer role, this period of training will take place at Britannia Royal Naval College (BRNC).
    There is a subtle difference though. These training nights would take place mainly at your unit. The nights with other units would be flagged well in advance and they would be fully paid etc. Such a process would also have a degree of flexability if someone missed a night or two or even a weekend. They could make it up.

    A training course covering something as technical as communications would need to be highly regimented in organistation even missing one weekend could result in missing far too much much important information. There is a course I was hoping to do this year and it is a week's full time training and four weekends. I can't make one day unfortunately and I'm out - fair enough. It's an intense course.

    I still think getting as much residential training FT is best. Of course there is the issue of employment protection, loss of salary if you earn more than your reserve pay and the number of man days allowed. Huge elephant in room.

    @ancientmariner has mentioned how there should be full employment protection. However, in the modern working enviroment while you could provide broad employment protection, the reality is that an employee walking into their employer and saying they will be gone for for 3-6 months is career suicide even if there is a job to come back to. This isn't the US where reservists still face issues with employers considering the protections in place and the greater respect for the military.

  29. #43
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    Can you not make up the day? Seems possible in other weekend courses such as last RDF modular driving course, they could make up the time if they missed.

  30. #44
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    If the curriculum is followed, it should be possible to cover any other module missed at another occasion..
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  32. #45
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    Can you not make up the day? Seems possible in other weekend courses such as last RDF modular driving course, they could make up the time if they missed.
    I'm not going to name the course but it's already condensed into a very short time frame with limitations on instructors and equipment. There wouldn't be time to catch up on the missed content if you missed a day. Course already has a very high RTU rate.

    I've completed a recent RDF driving course and had to make up days for that. More than possible on said course and I passed but apples and oranges.

  33. #46
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    I'm not going to name the course but it's already condensed into a very short time frame with limitations on instructors and equipment. There wouldn't be time to catch up on the missed content if you missed a day. Course already has a very high RTU rate.

    I've completed a recent RDF driving course and had to make up days for that. More than possible on said course and I passed but apples and oranges.
    Driving syllabii are extremely prescriptive on the amount of hours you have to spend behind the wheel

  34. #47
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    [QUOTE=Auldsod;472388]I'm not going to name the course but it's already condensed into a very short time frame with limitations on instructors and equipment. There wouldn't be time to catch up on the missed content if you missed a day. Course already has a very high RTU rate.

    With the restrictions you say above, very short timeframe, limitations on instructors and equipment, very high RTU rate. Sounds like its poorly planned course for RDF but it might just be the way it must be, ar least it's going ahead.

  35. #48
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=batterysgt;472392]
    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    I'm not going to name the course but it's already condensed into a very short time frame with limitations on instructors and equipment. There wouldn't be time to catch up on the missed content if you missed a day. Course already has a very high RTU rate.

    With the restrictions you say above, very short timeframe, limitations on instructors and equipment, very high RTU rate. Sounds like its poorly planned course for RDF but it might just be the way it must be, ar least it's going ahead.
    As with anything we do, safety is a huge factor. Perhaps the balance between running something for the RDF in modularised form as opposed to running it FT like the PDF will result in an impect solution but at least course is being run!

    I would counter that the course is well planned given the time possible to allocate to it.

  36. #49
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    Is it RDF or PDF instructors?

  37. #50
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    Is it RDF or PDF instructors?
    PDF.

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