The thing about the KC 390 is that Embraer could ramp up production easily enough if a large enough order for them came through. As has been suggested here before, if a decent European order was made, the Don could piggyback on such an order and add a couple......the C27 would be lovely, size wise, especially for small vehicle carriage.
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The C-27J vs C-295 battle is going on since they cam on the market. If you are looking for a top small tactical airlifter then the C-27J is your number one pick, it has more payload capability, wider and higher cabin and has the better STOL capability. However the wider and higher cabin make the fuselage fatter which eats into speed and economy. Hence it needs 2 x 4600hp engines compared to 2 x 2600hp engines on the C-295. This make the C-295 more economical to operate and gives it good loiter time. Also the C-295 has proven MPA versions already in-service so modification cost would be low. SO best pick for MPA is most likely the C-295.
My heart beats for the C-27J but my head says the C-295 is the best compromise for a common MPA/Tactical Airlift.
Hopefully one thing the Don is looking at is some pooling with our Nordic partners the Finns. They have transport versions of both the C-295 and the PC12NG which should allow cost saving in terms of spares and maintenance. There might even be a chance of developing something more out of it given our expertise in MPA and their increased naval patrol needs. And we could benefit from there transport versions. Just a thought!
sort of pooling
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Originally posted by Rhodes View PostThe Ford Ranger should be suitable.
The French will soon be introducing into service its Peugeot P4 replacement, the ACMAT VT4, which is a Ford Everest SUV modified by ACMAT for the French contract. The Ford Everest is the SUV variant of the Ford Ranger pickup.
The French have said the ACMAT VT4 can be airlifted by their CASA CN-235's, so if it can be airlifted then so to can a Ford Ranger.
https://military.polaris.com/en-us/dagor/
This has been recently ordered by the Canadians.
In the end the vehicle has to be matched to the aircraft carrying it. But for most vehicles the C-295 is a bit too small to be practical.
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Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View PostThe thing about the KC 390 is that Embraer could ramp up production easily enough if a large enough order for them came through. As has been suggested here before, if a decent European order was made, the Don could piggyback on such an order and add a couple......the C27 would be lovely, size wise, especially for small vehicle carriage.
Originally posted by EUFighter View PostThe C-27J vs C-295 battle is going on since they cam on the market. If you are looking for a top small tactical airlifter then the C-27J is your number one pick, it has more payload capability, wider and higher cabin and has the better STOL capability. However the wider and higher cabin make the fuselage fatter which eats into speed and economy. Hence it needs 2 x 4600hp engines compared to 2 x 2600hp engines on the C-295. This make the C-295 more economical to operate and gives it good loiter time. Also the C-295 has proven MPA versions already in-service so modification cost would be low. SO best pick for MPA is most likely the C-295.
My heart beats for the C-27J but my head says the C-295 is the best compromise for a common MPA/Tactical Airlift.
Hopefully one thing the Don is looking at is some pooling with our Nordic partners the Finns. They have transport versions of both the C-295 and the PC12NG which should allow cost saving in terms of spares and maintenance. There might even be a chance of developing something more out of it given our expertise in MPA and their increased naval patrol needs. And we could benefit from there transport versions. Just a thought!
sort of pooling
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Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View PostThe thing about the KC 390 is that Embraer could ramp up production easily enough if a large enough order for them came through. As has been suggested here before, if a decent European order was made, the Don could piggyback on such an order and add a couple......the C27 would be lovely, size wise, especially for small vehicle carriage.
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Originally posted by Sparky42 View PostI still don't get this argument about them being able to "ramp up", yes they have a successful commercial operation without question, but that doesn't automatically mean they can develop and supply a military spec airframe without difficulty, as the A400 project highlights. With them having damaged/lost one of the test aircraft (after damaging it before from memory) when will it even start it's production run? When is Portugal's 6 due to be produced? Will it be able to stick to the "sticker price" when it gets into serial production or will the price climb? What would be the extra cost to fit it for "MPA" activities? And above all why should we be looking at going for a design that's only entering service with the inevitable issues that brings?
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=20180505-0
As for Embraer being able to produce a MILSPEC aircraft they have being doing this for decades:
http://www.embraerds.com/
Their first home grown aircraft the EMB-110 was available in both civil and military versions, they even did a MPA version the EMB-111.
The KC-390 is in production, the first aircraft will be handed over this year, the loss of a Flight Test aircraft at this stage will effect IOC but not really the certification of the aircraft. To produce an aircraft from the order of the first part to delivery takes 2-3 years. So the whole production chain has been ramping up ever since the first prototype rolled out the door.
The addition of MPA equipment is the same for all aircraft, the C-295 already has a version with it but the suites are available and there would be no major technical issue adding such a suite to the KC-390. (cost is dependent upon the suite and would range from $25m to $50m) The KC-390 will be a damn fine tactical transporter, it fills nicely the slot currently occupied by the C-130. Whether a MPA version makes sense is another issue, the USCG have operated HC-130H/J's for many year so having an aircraft of such size in such a role has been demonstrated. But in terms of the tender it s a bit of overkill, would still be nice to see some KC-390s in IAC colours.
The majority of the trouble with the A400M has been political and the competing demands of the customer nations armed forces. Remember Airbus was brought in to try and save the A400M when it was already on its dead-bed and had one hand tied behind their back.
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The KC 390 uses as much of the Embraer parts bin as possible, so having to develop endless amounts of brackets/ducts/handles/hatches/doors/levers and the million other things that make up an aircraft doesn't have to be done over and over again, just like Boeing and MDD and Grumman and Dassault did for decades. Airlines and air forces like Embraer aircraft, because they are efficient, well made and reasonably priced and service is said to be as good as anyone's and they don't appear to have the baggage that Boeing brings with them when you order from them and Brazil haven't any colonial baggage nor have they invaded anyone, so dealing with them ruffles no feathers. The KC 390 also has the advantage that you don't have to dick around with hugely expensive, vulnerable propellors.
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Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by na grohmití View PostYou may be incorrect there Murph. The US aircraft went back into US hands, as the Italian makers refused to cover warranties of ex us aircraft, which were retired in an almost new condition. The Makers claimed these aircraft would compete with new orders. Meanwhile Zambia ordered just 2 aircraft in 2017, and the MPA version is being offerred to Canada and the RAF.Last edited by hptmurphy; 28 May 2018, 21:01.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View PostThe KC 390 uses as much of the Embraer parts bin as possible, so having to develop endless amounts of brackets/ducts/handles/hatches/doors/levers and the million other things that make up an aircraft doesn't have to be done over and over again, just like Boeing and MDD and Grumman and Dassault did for decades. Airlines and air forces like Embraer aircraft, because they are efficient, well made and reasonably priced and service is said to be as good as anyone's and they don't appear to have the baggage that Boeing brings with them when you order from them and Brazil haven't any colonial baggage nor have they invaded anyone, so dealing with them ruffles no feathers. The KC 390 also has the advantage that you don't have to dick around with hugely expensive, vulnerable propellors.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
I hope the new French Army Ford Everest is a convertible version, or they are going to get through a great deal of T-Cut.
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C 27 used by uscg with whom the ac have links, and was favoured by the army back in 2003 to the extent that there was a demo arranged without bluffwaffe interference, meets all the specs.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostThe KC-390 is in the Test phase and incidents such as a runway excursion is nothing that will stop the program. It has damage to the landing gear and fuselage and most likely will be repaired and fly again.
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=20180505-0
As for Embraer being able to produce a MILSPEC aircraft they have being doing this for decades:
http://www.embraerds.com/
Their first home grown aircraft the EMB-110 was available in both civil and military versions, they even did a MPA version the EMB-111.
The KC-390 is in production, the first aircraft will be handed over this year, the loss of a Flight Test aircraft at this stage will effect IOC but not really the certification of the aircraft. To produce an aircraft from the order of the first part to delivery takes 2-3 years. So the whole production chain has been ramping up ever since the first prototype rolled out the door.
The addition of MPA equipment is the same for all aircraft, the C-295 already has a version with it but the suites are available and there would be no major technical issue adding such a suite to the KC-390. (cost is dependent upon the suite and would range from $25m to $50m) The KC-390 will be a damn fine tactical transporter, it fills nicely the slot currently occupied by the C-130. Whether a MPA version makes sense is another issue, the USCG have operated HC-130H/J's for many year so having an aircraft of such size in such a role has been demonstrated. But in terms of the tender it s a bit of overkill, would still be nice to see some KC-390s in IAC colours.
The majority of the trouble with the A400M has been political and the competing demands of the customer nations armed forces. Remember Airbus was brought in to try and save the A400M when it was already on its dead-bed and had one hand tied behind their back.
I’d assume a jet powered or 4 turboprops will be thirsty compared to 2 turboprops
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Originally posted by DeV View PostEven if the money was there the KC390 is out - see post 33
I’d assume a jet powered or 4 turboprops will be thirsty compared to 2 turboprops
Saying that a C-17 is supposed to be fairly fuel efficient - I'm told the USAF want to get rid of some of their non-ER versions...
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The KC-390 is triple the size of the C-295 and flies nearly twice as fast so its fuel consumption is greater even if it has very efficient turbofans.
While it might be possible to squeeze a F350 SRV into a C-27J, a MOWAG can be lifted by the KC-390. (Just for interest)
Or 2 RS32M's if we want to drop them on someone without chutes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjF8ju7YeLILast edited by EUFighter; 28 May 2018, 22:44.
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