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  • Just to play Devil's advocate, "is the PC-12 Specter a tick in the box"?

    Although I agree the PC-12 is a great bit of kit and I like that the Air Corps is getting them is it really something we can say is a tick in the box. Is it not just another standalone capability? How does the PC-12 Specter fit into a new AC or Army operating mode? How is it linked to the MRV and CRV units? And for what do we need ISTAR?

    When we got the FR-172's there was a clear operational need, to monitor the border at the start of the troubles. 1971/72 was a time when a lot of xxxx could have hit the fan and we needed something to monitor the border. And to be fair the Americans still had the Cessna O-1A Bird Dog in service which had similar capabilities.

    Now move forward almost 50yrs, we have a step-change in the size and performance of the aircraft and a sensor suite that could not be dreamed of back in 1972. So what gap in capability will they perform? To yet again fly along the border to can Covid-19 transgressors? That is what we have the GASU for. So what will their military role be? If it is to support EU Battlegroups then I would hope that in addition to the sensor suite that the aircraft are getting warning and protection systems. Even to fly them in Mali could risk them being shot at with a MANPAD.

    The same goes for any piece of new kit, we should know why we need it and what changes could it bring to the operations of other parts of the DF.

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      • Very nice. The PC9 were supposed to come in that colour, apparently.
        The pod at the top of the tail fin seems much larger than other PC12NG.
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
          Into contested airspace in 2001 with a Squadron of 1970's A-4's seriously. When you look at the real cost of operating a couple of squadrons of forth gen fighter aircraft, the cost benefit analysis was clear.
          The RNZAF A-4F's were upgraded and essentially remanufactured in the early 90's to "K" or Kahu standard which essentially gave them a F-16AM cockpit and avionics. There was no difference in the OpEx of the A-4K and the F-16' we were to buy. Two independent reports were completed and ignored by the government of the day.

          Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
          The hypothetical Contested Maritime environment, in the Western Pacific, at some point in the future may be a possibility, however I would think it's a Stretch to think NZ forces would be alone in dealing with that threat.
          Because of the sheer size of the Pacific, and though we work / worked closely with both the RSAF and RAAF it was always deemed necessary to retain the ability to operate as a self contained air combat capability. The distance between the 2 closest RAAF and RNZAF airbases is the same as Dublin to Helsinki, Furthermore at the time the RNZAF was the principal maritime strike capability under the CER agreement.


          Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
          I think from an AC perspective, we are Tick on the Sceptre, really depends on the Equipment Fit for the C-295 whether it is really much of an expanded capability. AFAIK the CN-235 was never short of range or endurance in IAC service.
          Sceptre is a capability I wish we had down under.

          Going by the acquisition cost for the two C-295 airframes downselected - it seems very much a generation forward. With MPA's it is not really about the platform per-se but what is "inside the platform" and the C-295 has more Kva output than the legacy C-235 which drives the sensor output. MPA tasking range is a different rational to air mobility as payload affects range. A C-235 could deliver as a MPA but strictly last few miles range in the logistics train if carrying above 4500kg.

          Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
          Air Mobility is a big ask given the finances involved and the continued lack of REAL investment.
          Over the next 24 months there will continue to be quite a few midlife B73NG's and A320's parked up with STC's in place for conversion. One does not need new birds. In fact the RAAF's A330 based KC-30A's are ex Qantas birds which is an air force not short of coin.
          Last edited by Anzac; 29 April 2020, 10:38.

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          • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
            In fact the RAAF's A330 based KC-30A's are ex Qantas birds which is an air force not short of coin.
            The first 5 KC30's (A39-001 to A39-005) were new builds, the last two aircraft A39-006 and A39-007 are converted Qantas machines.

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            • Originally posted by Rocinante View Post
              I hope that we get a matt paint job before they enter service. Yes gloss is easier to keep clean but it reflects and that is something you do not want on an ISTAR bird.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                Very nice. The PC9 were supposed to come in that colour, apparently.
                The pod at the top of the tail fin seems much larger than other PC12NG.
                It is the fairing for the trim actuator but does contain some "stuff", actually it is around that same size as found on the USAF U-28A Draco. Not sure anyone will tell what exactly is inside!
                https://twitter.com/hashtag/u28a

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                • Like the F28? Though theirs also use civvy paint schemes.

                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • I know we keep straying of topic, but does anyone have the specs for the C-295?

                    Is it just FITS as per the CN-235 or does it bring new capability??

                    Comment


                    • Airbus says just FITS.

                      Getafe, 16th December 2019 - Ireland’s Department of Defence has announced the acquisition of two Airbus C295 medium airlifters in a maritime surveillance configuration.
                      With this new order, the Irish Air Corps will become the 33rd C295 operator worldwide. Both aircraft will be equipped with the Fully Integrated Tactical System (FITS) and specific state-of-the-art mission sensors together with the recently announced Collins Aerospace Pro Line Fusion avionics.
                      Alberto Gutiérrez, Head of Military Aircraft at Airbus Defence and Space, said: “We are pleased to welcome the Irish Air Corps to our family of C295 operators, a signal of continued trust from an Air Force that already operates two Airbus CN235s.”
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • that fairing probably contains a Wifi antenna or an ACARs antenna or a HF antenna. It probably does not contain anything "secret squirrel". More and more civvy aircraft are getting more and more bumps on their airframes and 99% of them are just for comms antennae of one kind or another. As for the colour, the aircraft will be practically invisible to the naked eye in the Irish climate, rather like the Pc-9s.

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                        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                          It is more the DF knows what it can get rather than what it needs, and it is more the DoD/DoF that is the problem. Read any of the papers published in the past years by serving officers, the needs are often expressed well and clear but ridiculed by politcians/DoD. Underwater security for example!
                          The DF asks for what it wants (sometimes pushing the envelope) what it finally ends up with is after DoD and DPER have been at it.

                          Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                          Into contested airspace in 2001 with a Squadron of 1970's A-4's seriously. When you look at the real cost of operating a couple of squadrons of forth gen fighter aircraft, the cost benefit analysis was clear.

                          The hypothetical Contested Maritime environment, in the Western Pacific, at some point in the future may be a possibility, however I would think it's a Stretch to think NZ forces would be alone in dealing with that threat.

                          Clearly our old friend Maslow was at work in designing the future force structure for New Zealand.

                          I think from an AC perspective, we are Tick on the Sceptre, really depends on the Equipment Fit for the C-295 whether it is really much of an expanded capability. AFAIK the CN-235 was never short of range or endurance in IAC service.

                          Air Mobility is a big ask given the finances involved and the continued lack of REAL investment.

                          The government continue the Mantra of defence investment and mention the AW-139's and the Mowag's... how long are they in service?

                          I stand corrected on the NZAF/RNZAF.
                          The difference is that NZ is an military ally of some nations and is therefore expected to contribute and In fairness for a small nation with a small military they do


                          Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                          Just to play Devil's advocate, "is the PC-12 Specter a tick in the box"?

                          Although I agree the PC-12 is a great bit of kit and I like that the Air Corps is getting them is it really something we can say is a tick in the box. Is it not just another standalone capability? How does the PC-12 Specter fit into a new AC or Army operating mode? How is it linked to the MRV and CRV units? And for what do we need ISTAR?

                          When we got the FR-172's there was a clear operational need, to monitor the border at the start of the troubles. 1971/72 was a time when a lot of xxxx could have hit the fan and we needed something to monitor the border. And to be fair the Americans still had the Cessna O-1A Bird Dog in service which had similar capabilities.

                          Now move forward almost 50yrs, we have a step-change in the size and performance of the aircraft and a sensor suite that could not be dreamed of back in 1972. So what gap in capability will they perform? To yet again fly along the border to can Covid-19 transgressors? That is what we have the GASU for. So what will their military role be? If it is to support EU Battlegroups then I would hope that in addition to the sensor suite that the aircraft are getting warning and protection systems. Even to fly them in Mali could risk them being shot at with a MANPAD.

                          The same goes for any piece of new kit, we should know why we need it and what changes could it bring to the operations of other parts of the DF.
                          You may be pleasantly surprised what the PC12s will be capable of. May not have RWR, LWR, etc but will bring DF airborne ISTAR on massively.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                            that fairing probably contains a Wifi antenna or an ACARs antenna or a HF antenna. It probably does not contain anything "secret squirrel". More and more civvy aircraft are getting more and more bumps on their airframes and 99% of them are just for comms antennae of one kind or another. As for the colour, the aircraft will be practically invisible to the naked eye in the Irish climate, rather like the Pc-9s.
                            You may not be able to see a Pc-9 in an Irish sky but you will certainly hear it .
                            Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              Just to play Devil's advocate, "is the PC-12 Specter a tick in the box"?

                              Although I agree the PC-12 is a great bit of kit and I like that the Air Corps is getting them is it really something we can say is a tick in the box. Is it not just another standalone capability? How does the PC-12 Specter fit into a new AC or Army operating mode? How is it linked to the MRV and CRV units? And for what do we need ISTAR?


                              It is. It doesn't. It's not. Unless its deploying overseas, then its for Garda support.

                              Without two engines, its use as in Maritime ISTAR (bearing in mind, Ireland is an Island) is limited to the shoreline.

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                              • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                                It is. It doesn't. It's not. Unless its deploying overseas, then its for Garda support.
                                Not necessarily

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