Adequacy of Irish Ports

[na grohmiti]

Who owns the ferry terminal now? I see the Irish Lights vessel ties up there on Google Streetview. Given it's life is over as a ferryport, what plan is there for the terminal building?

[EUFighter]

Given that the Dun Laoghaire Masterplan was to build a "Cruise Terminal" it might just be time to have the NS jump in. With the coronavirus crisis the cruise industry has been hit even more than the airline industry and will take much longer to come back. Therefore Dun Laoghaire needs something new, the NS taking over Carlisle Pier would bring a replacement revenue stream for the Harbour.

Alternative mooring locations would be Arklow, the North Quay or Drogheda as the shallow water and viaduct would not be an issue for 40-50m patrol craft.

[Laners]

Howth, like Dun Laogharie also has the DART within walking distance of their harbours for easy access to both mainline train stations in Dublin , a consideration if a system of rotating crews were to be used , Howth also has a combi lift if these vessels need to be dry docked for maintenance .

[DeV]

Given that the Dun Laoghaire Masterplan was to build a "Cruise Terminal" it might just be time to have the NS jump in. With the coronavirus crisis the cruise industry has been hit even more than the airline industry and will take much longer to come back. Therefore Dun Laoghaire needs something new, the NS taking over Carlisle Pier would bring a replacement revenue stream for the Harbour.

Alternative mooring locations would be Arklow, the North Quay or Drogheda as the shallow water and viaduct would not be an issue for 40-50m patrol craft.

The harbour is now under DLRCC and the ferry terminal is intended for use as office pods (not sure if that ever happened)

[ancientmariner]

Given that the Dun Laoghaire Masterplan was to build a "Cruise Terminal" it might just be time to have the NS jump in. With the coronavirus crisis the cruise industry has been hit even more than the airline industry and will take much longer to come back. Therefore Dun Laoghaire needs something new, the NS taking over Carlisle Pier would bring a replacement revenue stream for the Harbour.

Alternative mooring locations would be Arklow, the North Quay or Drogheda as the shallow water and viaduct would not be an issue for 40-50m patrol craft.

NO revenue stream for a STATE Ship in a State acquired Berth. CIL homeport their ship at Dunlaoghaire and may have it at a pro bono rate. No National Navy should pay for its berthage in defence of the State.

[EUFighter]

NO revenue stream for a STATE Ship in a State acquired Berth. CIL homeport their ship at Dunlaoghaire and may have it at a pro bono rate. No National Navy should pay for its berthage in defence of the State.

No berthage is for free, even in Haulbowline the NS has costs, in the latter case the upkeep of the facilities including thing like dredging of the basin. Dun Laoghaire port is no longer a state entity, it now belongs to DLRCC, and even I think this was a strategic mistake. But it is what it is and DLRCC run the port not for the benefit of the state but for DLR residents. So they will need some compensation, it can be in the form of a 99 year lease with DLRCC committed to ensuring the access. And outside such considerations there are the benefits from supporting a naval base no matter how small.

The CIL have been resident there for a long time and where already there when the port was handed to DLRCC, thus they will have already had arrangements in place. The NS was not resident and thus would have to negotiate new arrangements. I totally agree that ports and NS access to port should be handled at a national level with a proper strategy but that does sadly not happen. This should however not stop the NS from finding a suitable arrangement with DLRCC or going north or south to another suitable port on the east coast.

[na grohmiti]

The NS doesn't have to pay for berthage in Haulbowline, or should it in any port in Ireland. It is not a commercial body. No different to expecting the GS arriving at a shopping centre to deal with shoplifters to pay for parking outside. Or expecting the Fire Brigade to pay water charges for using a hydrant to put out your fire.

[EUFighter]

The NS doesn't have to pay for berthage in Haulbowline, or should it in any port in Ireland. It is not a commercial body. No different to expecting the GS arriving at a shopping centre to deal with shoplifters to pay for parking outside. Or expecting the Fire Brigade to pay water charges for using a hydrant to put out your fire.

What I was saying is that even the berthage at Haulbowline is not for free, it has cost associated with its maintenance, security etc. Just because the costs are internal does not mean they disappear, they still come out of the same budget.

Nothing is for free, even the water in a fire hydrant (as well as the provision of said hydrant) has costs associated with it. This has been borne by the local authority who are also the ones who provide the fire service funding.

[Laners]

The thing is , when DLRCC took ownership of the harbour from Dublin Port it came with all it's associated debt which DLRCC will be trying to reconcile from any future clients of the harbour .

[ancientmariner]

No berthage is for free, even in Haulbowline the NS has costs, in the latter case the upkeep of the facilities including thing like dredging of the basin. Dun Laoghaire port is no longer a state entity, it now belongs to DLRCC, and even I think this was a strategic mistake. But it is what it is and DLRCC run the port not for the benefit of the state but for DLR residents. So they will need some compensation, it can be in the form of a 99 year lease with DLRCC committed to ensuring the access. And outside such considerations there are the benefits from supporting a naval base no matter how small.

The CIL have been resident there for a long time and where already there when the port was handed to DLRCC, thus they will have already had arrangements in place. The NS was not resident and thus would have to negotiate new arrangements. I totally agree that ports and NS access to port should be handled at a national level with a proper strategy but that does sadly not happen. This should however not stop the NS from finding a suitable arrangement with DLRCC or going north or south to another suitable port on the east coast.

We also were there for a long time and inherited a Naval Buoy from the RN. We had to go to the buoy in DL every trip on the East coast to maintain our rights. When the HSS was mooted , our buoy was in the approach track. We were offered the East pier berth as a naval berth. We have rights and property in the harbour from 1930's and foundation of the Slua Muiri, and the quid pro Quo for relinquishing our Buoy. I also did 8 years with CIL as relief Navigation officer and we berthed on old British railway berth as a permanent Lights Berth 1992-2000 and I'm sure thereafter.

[sofa]

The penury of our Ports system is highlighted by the fact that providing a second permanent secure Naval Berth on the East Coast may be litigious . Dunlaoghaire has become a Marina and weeds are growing on what was once BR quays and rail links to the National system. The right of Government to allocate free Berths was rescinded in recent Harbour Acts, effectively making the Irish naval Service homeless and subject to allocation, or not, on the day of arrival, at all ports, other than the base at Haulbowline.

There is now a 2m high chain link fence around the edge of the Naval berth in Dun Laoghaire.

[trellheim]

And the 21st Bn post in there is long gone

[ancientmariner]

In the development of any major new port, the plans and feasibility must be done by PORT Design Engineering agencies. The depicted design is nuts with too much shoehorning of berths in the port area, such as having stern or bow berthing in the same linear area as alongside berthing. The new harbour will also need swell and weather break harbour walls. Irish developers NEVER use their own money so you never know who the eventual owner will be. All ports should be controlled by a national Ports Agency to oversee ongoing development. The Bremore Port depiction is a mini port for a couple of conventional ships and a few ro-ro's or Lo-Lo's. Fairy stories underweigh.

Whatever we do about ports in the future, right now we need to listen to Importing/exporting Industry and find some permanent way of eliminating the compromised Landbridge to European markets. Our Roll on/ roll off traffic is about 41096 tonnes daily or 15,000,000 tonnes annually. The daily rate would occupy 2055 TEU's which would require at least 5 ships each to lift 400 TEU's and 400 Truck?Tractors. We should consider a permanent or long term charter with Irish Crews and management.

[ancientmariner]

I saw Johnny Ronan mentioned and stopped reading.

There is an ongoing malaise at strategic levels for failing to see the need for improvement of all major infrastructures not least Ports and their capacities, and also the National power grid. The Green policy sees most national power generation ,using fossil fuels closed down, while tinkering with wind and plugging into our neighbour's Power far and wide. In these circumstances entities spring up with bright ideas, leading us into PPP land of charges and tolls. Today's forecast is that we are soon reaching a point when our needs in power will not be met due to demands of Electric auto units and Data centres.
The Ports situation is also critical in that the range of berth choices is fast diminishing and essential repair facilities for larger vessels has been reduced to a single port.

[Truck Driver]

Not a salt water head by any means, but isn't Foynes a deep water port? Mind you, a major upgrade of the N69 would be needed for access to/from Limerick and hence to the national roads network

[Truck Driver]

I saw Johnny Ronan mentioned and stopped reading.

Had a giggle when I thought of Mario Rosenstock's p1$$ take of said same...

[ancientmariner]

Not a salt water head by any means, but isn't Foynes a deep water port? Mind you, a major upgrade of the N69 would be needed for access to/from Limerick and hence to the national roads network

The difficulty with the Port of Foynes is it's distance from the sea. The approach to the Shannon Estruary can be a long climb from the Blaskets to the shelter of LOOP Head in westerly or northwesterly gales. That, added to the long passage to Foynes, coupled with the narrowing effect of BEAL BAR, and the very narrow approach south of FOYNES Island, makes the port less than Handy. The N69 is an asset but the port is small with one commercial quay AFAIK.

[ancientmariner]

Today Cork Port management have submitted a plan to Cork County Council and government for a spur road from Jack Lynch Tunnel to " Their " land at the Tivoli Terminal. It is to underpin their Plan to Develop Tivoli Terminal to Cork City quays with a variety of modern development buildings. A number of questions arises. Who will pay for the road. Who owns the land from Tivoli to Cork. Who sanctions the change of use of harbour lands. What is being done to replace the LOST quay space and its hinterland and storage, throughout City Quays.
How much did the Port Authority pay for the land bank at Ringaskiddy. Were the DOD compensated for the loss of the land adjacent to Black Prince pier, where Ringaskiddy now stands. Who owns all of the Harbour lands still in control of Port Authority and does the STATE have any say in its good order and use. Finally who is to gain financially for the Tivoli Development and additionally the Marino Point terminal.

In today's Irish Examiner the Chairman of Cork Port authority admits congestion at Ringaskiddy Port area and seeks development of berthage at both Marina Point and Cobh Town hall area for Cruise liners with up to 150 visits a year. The viability of such usage is questionable as Marina Point would then be Multiuse and subject to availability for a range of ship types. The Town hall Berth would be almost in the Streets and open to the harbour mouth, leaving it exposed to full southerly winds. Getting rid of upper port berthage has consequences and meeting user needs is fraught with sectoral interests overriding sustainable long terms needs. Making it up as you go along is not wise planning.

[na grohmiti]

I'd be willing to suggest they missed the boat, excuse the pun, with regard to cruise liners.
That industry has become a victim of Covid 19 and will see no recovery in the short to medium term. Small ports that once welcomed the Cruise liner trade have recently turned their backs on it, realising it brought no benefit. Cobh is a prime example. A liner of 2000 plus guests disembarks those aboard to waiting coaches, to be brought to the checklist of tourist traps. Blarney, Cashel, Jameson Distillery, Ring of Kerry etc. Only a handful will spend time in Cobh.
Venice, before the Pandemic, had decided it no longer wanted the Cruise liner trade, as their local infrastructure could not cope with a sudden influx of an extra 5000+ humans, and all that goes with it. Sorrento isn't far behind.
Meanwhile those working aboard get pitiful wages, the liner companies making sure to hire them on local contracts, so they get paid as per their minimum wage at home, instead of the industry standard.(Most come from developing Central american or Aisian states). Passengers are encouraged by cruise companies to tip their housekeeping staff, so they won't have to pay them a proper wage. In common with many of those working aboard ship during the pandemic, many of the lowest paid workers were stranded aboard since the initial outbreak, as ports denied them permission to dock, and there were no flights to repatriate them.
Ships less than 15 years old are already facing the breakers yard. Many others are mothballed, as their owners await signs of an end to the pandemic.
Best hope for the liners in the short term is they be repurposed as quarantine hotels.
But we won't see liners round these parts for some time. When they do, it will be the smaller excursion vessels that island hop around the European coast, who are actually worth more to the local economy per capita than the Super liners of 3000 passengers or more. These can happily berth at the city quays, for now at least, until some future developer turns them into floating pontoon boardwalks for where the drug addicts can congregate.

[ancientmariner]

I'd be willing to suggest they missed the boat, excuse the pun, with regard to cruise liners.
That industry has become a victim of Covid 19 and will see no recovery in the short to medium term. Small ports that once welcomed the Cruise liner trade have recently turned their backs on it, realising it brought no benefit. Cobh is a prime example. A liner of 2000 plus guests disembarks those aboard to waiting coaches, to be brought to the checklist of tourist traps. Blarney, Cashel, Jameson Distillery, Ring of Kerry etc. Only a handful will spend time in Cobh.
Venice, before the Pandemic, had decided it no longer wanted the Cruise liner trade, as their local infrastructure could not cope with a sudden influx of an extra 5000+ humans, and all that goes with it. Sorrento isn't far behind.
Meanwhile those working aboard get pitiful wages, the liner companies making sure to hire them on local contracts, so they get paid as per their minimum wage at home, instead of the industry standard.(Most come from developing Central american or Aisian states). Passengers are encouraged by cruise companies to tip their housekeeping staff, so they won't have to pay them a proper wage. In common with many of those working aboard ship during the pandemic, many of the lowest paid workers were stranded aboard since the initial outbreak, as ports denied them permission to dock, and there were no flights to repatriate them.
Ships less than 15 years old are already facing the breakers yard. Many others are mothballed, as their owners await signs of an end to the pandemic.
Best hope for the liners in the short term is they be repurposed as quarantine hotels.
But we won't see liners round these parts for some time. When they do, it will be the smaller excursion vessels that island hop around the European coast, who are actually worth more to the local economy per capita than the Super liners of 3000 passengers or more. These can happily berth at the city quays, for now at least, until some future developer turns them into floating pontoon boardwalks for where the drug addicts can congregate.

Yes the world cruise trade is in covid hibernation but the point is the development and cost of new Cork Harbour berthage to replace all previously available berthage including visiting Liners and Naval vessels of all types and sizes. Berths are required for multi-cargo coasters, car carriers, container vessels, bulk cargo vessels, ro-ro, Lo-Lo vessels, passenger trade, and general cruise and State visitors. Right now all the balls are in the air but nobody is clearly planning how they will land.