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  • #46
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    In order to make Foynes a major container port the State would have to reclaim lands to the N'eastrly side of the present bulk berths. Install harbour infrastructure and handling facilities, dredge the northern mud blockages to create an entry channel in the South and an exit to the Northern side of Foynes Island. The road out of Foynes has a number of small fixed bridges over streams and would need to be certified suitable for continuous road container traffic. I think the visualisation of the proponents would take investments close to a billion+ to achieve. In any event, whatever is decided , it should be on the East Bank of the river to save dragging cargo through Limerick.

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    • #47
      Any Movement on the LNG terminal outside Tarbert by the way?
      Foynes has a lot going for it, but the infastructure around LoLo is not something that just appears overnight. The Road to foynes is particularly unsuitable for large volumes of heavy traffic that comes with LoLo. Combine that with the reluctance of the main carriers to travel too far from the main shipping lanes, even when loading and discharging.
      Bellview lost out because it was too far from the sea. Port of Cork is moving downstream to deal with the same issue. Ships are getting bigger but times are getting tighter too for turnaround.
      Their only hope is to entice the Transatlantic lines to divert up the shannon en route to and from European ports.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • #48
        A weekly LoLo feeder to another European ocean vessel port would be a major start

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        • #49
          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          A weekly LoLo feeder to another European ocean vessel port would be a major start
          The major European ports for services from Ireland would be ROTTERDAM or FELIXSTOWE. If we were considering an Irish Port as a feeder to a variety of European container ports then we should be aiming to get vessels, otherwise heading to Europe, to land in Ireland for feeding on to the continent, ideally by Irish ships. I did a little stint on MV Wicklow taking containers from Dublin to Rotterdam . They also had the KILKENNY until it collided with an outbound container vessel HASSELWERDER. Right now we have nothing but we still plan on the assumption that someone else will do it for us. The Governments stated policy on port development is Laissez-faire on projects or fit them with financial brakes that makes them meaningless .

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          • #50
            Any chance we could convince Arklow Shipping to start operating container ships? They seem to be doing well in the Bulk trade, and still maintain Irish Flag and Port of registry on most of their fleet.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
              In order to make Foynes a major container port the State would have to reclaim lands to the N'eastrly side of the present bulk berths. Install harbour infrastructure and handling facilities, dredge the northern mud blockages to create an entry channel in the South and an exit to the Northern side of Foynes Island. The road out of Foynes has a number of small fixed bridges over streams and would need to be certified suitable for continuous road container traffic. I think the visualisation of the proponents would take investments close to a billion+ to achieve. In any event, whatever is decided , it should be on the East Bank of the river to save dragging cargo through Limerick.
              The plan is to build 16km of motorway from Patrickswell to Rathkeale. This will bypass Adare to the north instead of the original plan which went to the south of the village but didn't get planning. By taking the road to the north it will run closer to the coast road (N69). They will then build a new 15.5km grade-separated single carriageway (GSSC) road directly to Foynes port. A HGV leaving Foynes port in 2024 should travel only 15.5 km on high-quality single carriageway (with no junctions, just flyovers and underpasses. No villages) before joining the motorway and access to Galway, Shannon, Dublin, Belfast etc.

              Details and a map can be found here:

              Detailed information and maps of Ireland's current and future road network.


              The new road from the M21 to Foynes is marked in Green. By 2124 the M20 might even reach Cork.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                Any Movement on the LNG terminal outside Tarbert by the way?
                Huge progress at last in August:

                A long delayed €500m gas terminal on the Shannon Estuary is back on after US based New Fortress Energy struck a deal to buy the business with full permission.


                More NIMBY shite in October:

                An environmental charity was granted leave this morning to judicially review An Bord Pleanála’s decision to extend planning permission for a proposed €500 million gas terminal in Co Kerry.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  The major European ports for services from Ireland would be ROTTERDAM or FELIXSTOWE. If we were considering an Irish Port as a feeder to a variety of European container ports then we should be aiming to get vessels, otherwise heading to Europe, to land in Ireland for feeding on to the continent, ideally by Irish ships. I did a little stint on MV Wicklow taking containers from Dublin to Rotterdam . They also had the KILKENNY until it collided with an outbound container vessel HASSELWERDER. Right now we have nothing but we still plan on the assumption that someone else will do it for us. The Governments stated policy on port development is Laissez-faire on projects or fit them with financial brakes that makes them meaningless .
                  A ocean LoLo service to Ireland is only viable if there will be a few hundred containers transhipped on every sailing and of course that there is more than 1 service calling at the port.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    A ocean LoLo service to Ireland is only viable if there will be a few hundred containers transhipped on every sailing and of course that there is more than 1 service calling at the port.
                    The Ocean Containership similar to Maersk or to the Chinese COSCO will carry up to 20,000 TEU's ( 20ft ) or 10,000 2/TEU's ( 40ft). They would be handled by a container loading/unloading facility having a single berth with 6 container cranes to cover dispersal of container units on or off a 900ft vessel. The port facility needs storage for containers arriving by road/rail and waiting to be loaded also facilities for containers arriving by ship and awaiting clearance and shipping to another destination. If you are to hande two ships at a time then two berths would need 12 container cranes.
                    Feeder services to other ports would also impact on a further provision of suitable berthing and handling facilities. Initial costs would be eye watering. But we should consider it.

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                    • #55
                      Was talking to a Merchant Master earlier this week and he is of the opinion Superships like the AP Moller-Maersk E class or Coscos have reached critical mass. (Much like the oil supertankers of the 80s that all ended up being converted to floating storage). They were built to ship what was basically a glut of chinese mail order goods, and that trade has waned. Much of their trade now is carrying empty boxes back to where they are in short supply. Few ports have facilities to handle them and port operating costs are excessively high. Many ports that accept these ships do not have cranes with reach capable of removing all containers, so the ship is either loaded to accomodate these cranes, or moved during loading/unloading. Neither option is economical. When built they also boasted of being able to achieve the same high speeds as smaller vessels of type, however soon after their owners ordered captains to cut back the speed, as the faster ships were just spending longer at layby waiting for a suitable unloading/loading berth to become available.
                      To reduce costs, one of the UK container ports that can accept these ships now does so without harbour pilots. It was an extra cost that the shipowners wanted to do without. They demanded no pilot, or else they would take their ships elsewhere.
                      The Largest container ship currently visiting Cork is 3800 TEU. (All Refrigerated) This type of ship visits once a week with fruit from Central America. However smaller feeder ships visit more frequently, with a capacity of just over 1000TEU.
                      To accept larger ships you also need an infastructure that can handle the volume of containers needed to feed the larger ships. We rely on all our TEU freight arriving by road. A road that is already well over capacity and bursting at the seams.
                      Irish rail got rid of their TEU carrying rolling stock.
                      Rotterdam sees as much containers arriving by barge using inland waterways as it does by road.
                      Its called intermodality and Ireland does not do it.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                        Was talking to a Merchant Master earlier this week and he is of the opinion Superships like the AP Moller-Maersk E class or Coscos have reached critical mass. (Much like the oil supertankers of the 80s that all ended up being converted to floating storage). They were built to ship what was basically a glut of chinese mail order goods, and that trade has waned. Much of their trade now is carrying empty boxes back to where they are in short supply. Few ports have facilities to handle them and port operating costs are excessively high. Many ports that accept these ships do not have cranes with reach capable of removing all containers, so the ship is either loaded to accomodate these cranes, or moved during loading/unloading. Neither option is economical. When built they also boasted of being able to achieve the same high speeds as smaller vessels of type, however soon after their owners ordered captains to cut back the speed, as the faster ships were just spending longer at layby waiting for a suitable unloading/loading berth to become available.
                        To reduce costs, one of the UK container ports that can accept these ships now does so without harbour pilots. It was an extra cost that the shipowners wanted to do without. They demanded no pilot, or else they would take their ships elsewhere.
                        The Largest container ship currently visiting Cork is 3800 TEU. (All Refrigerated) This type of ship visits once a week with fruit from Central America. However smaller feeder ships visit more frequently, with a capacity of just over 1000TEU.
                        To accept larger ships you also need an infastructure that can handle the volume of containers needed to feed the larger ships. We rely on all our TEU freight arriving by road. A road that is already well over capacity and bursting at the seams.
                        Irish rail got rid of their TEU carrying rolling stock.
                        Rotterdam sees as much containers arriving by barge using inland waterways as it does by road.
                        Its called intermodality and Ireland does not do it.
                        Most of world trade is carried by sea. It is the case from time to time that overcapacity of carriage availability is caused as ships get bigger and bigger. However the backbone of trade will be designed to stay within parameters that will allow it to Transit the Suez and Panama canals. Because a trinity of big players corner the market small inland countries, and small Island Nations like us, are at the costly end of the supply chain with our cargo passing through a field of handlers putting up costs and prices. We must get back to irish flagged ships like Bells and B+I and have sensible container ports for own requirements and also evaluate whether we can become a feeder base, handling larger TEU Vessels. Pilotage deals were always there for habitual ships like ferries and naval ships but some money MUST be paid or the port goes under.

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                        • #57
                          I understand the ships getting a pilotage exemption do so, not because, as is usually the case, their captains are frequent port visitors, but because the company has faith in the ships auto pilot bringing it to berth safely.

                          Make of that what you will.
                          You may remember that Bell were groundbreakers in the trade at the time with some of their ships. In particular being the first to have hatchless holds aft of the accomodation, which was to the ships fore.
                          I believe their demise came about due to costs of repairs to the port that was in their ownership.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                            I understand the ships getting a pilotage exemption do so, not because, as is usually the case, their captains are frequent port visitors, but because the company has faith in the ships auto pilot bringing it to berth safely.

                            Make of that what you will.
                            You may remember that Bell were groundbreakers in the trade at the time with some of their ships. In particular being the first to have hatchless holds aft of the accomodation, which was to the ships fore.
                            I believe their demise came about due to costs of repairs to the port that was in their ownership.
                            just as a matter of fact , an auto pilot only steers a course manually inserted by human hand.It replaces the quartermaster on passage. Generally, except on long river passages, steering in Port is done by a qualified helmsman. In Irish ports pilotage charges are compulsory.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                              The Ocean Containership similar to Maersk or to the Chinese COSCO will carry up to 20,000 TEU's ( 20ft ) or 10,000 2/TEU's ( 40ft). They would be handled by a container loading/unloading facility having a single berth with 6 container cranes to cover dispersal of container units on or off a 900ft vessel. The port facility needs storage for containers arriving by road/rail and waiting to be loaded also facilities for containers arriving by ship and awaiting clearance and shipping to another destination. If you are to hande two ships at a time then two berths would need 12 container cranes.
                              Feeder services to other ports would also impact on a further provision of suitable berthing and handling facilities. Initial costs would be eye watering. But we should consider it.
                              Absolutely but that isn’t the point I’m making

                              Dublin Port handles approaching 700,000 TEUs annually and is our biggest LoLo port. A good portion of them will be short
                              Sea to various European ports which is fine but we are talking about ocean vessels. The final destinations are all over the world.

                              For example, if your container is going from Dublin to Norfolk VA, one of your options is ACL from Liverpool to Norfolk (it makes 3 other stops within Europe and 3 others within North America). ACL is not going to add/change one of those ports to Foynes/Cork unless there is demand for imports/exports on every sailing for at the very least a few hundred containers. That could be every week or 2. Their customers in the rest of Europe and the US may not be best pleased about the transit time being increased by probably a day on every sailing. But that is only 1 service and would be insufficient to warrant the development of a new deep water port. Your also going to have to have ocean vessels destined for the Far East, Africa etc etc and sufficient demand on every sailing to justify it.

                              From an importer/exporter perspective, with much of it being done from the Greater Dublin area, depending on the INCOTERM I’m going to have to pay to Road or rail x TEUs per week to Foynes/Cork to create that demand.

                              It is in the National State Interests to have a deep water ocean port absolutely but unless the demand is there for ocean lines to justify including it on their services it will be empty. It makes strategic sense but not commercial

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                Absolutely but that isn’t the point I’m making

                                Dublin Port handles approaching 700,000 TEUs annually and is our biggest LoLo port. A good portion of them will be short
                                Sea to various European ports which is fine but we are talking about ocean vessels. The final destinations are all over the world.

                                For example, if your container is going from Dublin to Norfolk VA, one of your options is ACL from Liverpool to Norfolk (it makes 3 other stops within Europe and 3 others within North America). ACL is not going to add/change one of those ports to Foynes/Cork unless there is demand for imports/exports on every sailing for at the very least a few hundred containers. That could be every week or 2. Their customers in the rest of Europe and the US may not be best pleased about the transit time being increased by probably a day on every sailing. But that is only 1 service and would be insufficient to warrant the development of a new deep water port. Your also going to have to have ocean vessels destined for the Far East, Africa etc etc and sufficient demand on every sailing to justify it.

                                From an importer/exporter perspective, with much of it being done from the Greater Dublin area, depending on the INCOTERM I’m going to have to pay to Road or rail x TEUs per week to Foynes/Cork to create that demand.

                                It is in the National State Interests to have a deep water ocean port absolutely but unless the demand is there for ocean lines to justify including it on their services it will be empty. It makes strategic sense but not commercial
                                Was just indicating the cost of upping our game. The Shannon protagonists are proposing cargo/container handling that would ideally see Ireland providing a Felixstowe type facility to make us a European Terminal with feeder Services to Europe and export services Worldwide . I wouldn't put it there myself but wherever it goes it needs shelter, easy pilotage, deep water, good communication road and rail, deep pockets, and a professional planner. In general if you build a workable facility it will attract traffic. Ireland as a geographic first stop to Europe could be attractive as it costs to bring the big container ships to Europort. Norway which is more out of the way than us , same population, has 16,000,000 tonnes of shipping with 1400 vessels, while we have less than a 100. If we continually accept our tin mug status then we are goosed.

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