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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Belview port or across the river from t. And yes the need for dredging is pretty clear. As for logistical requirements - not so sure. How much of a port does London have?
    I wouldn't compare the Thames Estuary with Waterford and I would say London Gateway is overtaking Tilbury

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  3. #152
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    You can dredge all you want, but the Suir, Nore and Barrow will refill it with silt weekly.
    Hydro dynamics will decide where the mud goes. Move if and it will just block up somewhere else. The reclaimation of rungaskiddy caused severe silting in other sides of the harbour. Whitegate for example, up to the early 80s had 3 usable piers. A combination of reclaimation at Aghada and Ringaskiddy means these piers are now dry except for a 4 hour window daily. Rowing regatta which were once a weekly event, can now only take place during a favourable spring tide, when there is enough water to lift the football sized lane marker buoys.
    Even with dredging at Duncannon, you are still only opening the port to slightly larger ships that currently call. You can't change the long trip upriver, (presumably under costly pilot) to Bellview. This is why Port of Cork has moved downstream, to remove this half hour trip from visiting vessels.
    Cork has a minimum of 11m below datum as far as the new port with the old berth maintained at 13.4m. A vessel fully laden at that draft can enter or leave at any state of tide.
    Shipowners dont like being constrained by tides where possible.
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  5. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    You can dredge all you want, but the Suir, Nore and Barrow will refill it with silt weekly.
    Hydro dynamics will decide where the mud goes. Move if and it will just block up somewhere else. The reclaimation of rungaskiddy caused severe silting in other sides of the harbour. Whitegate for example, up to the early 80s had 3 usable piers. A combination of reclaimation at Aghada and Ringaskiddy means these piers are now dry except for a 4 hour window daily. Rowing regatta which were once a weekly event, can now only take place during a favourable spring tide, when there is enough water to lift the football sized lane marker buoys.
    Even with dredging at Duncannon, you are still only opening the port to slightly larger ships that currently call. You can't change the long trip upriver, (presumably under costly pilot) to Bellview. This is why Port of Cork has moved downstream, to remove this half hour trip from visiting vessels.
    Cork has a minimum of 11m below datum as far as the new port with the old berth maintained at 13.4m. A vessel fully laden at that draft can enter or leave at any state of tide.
    Shipowners dont like being constrained by tides where possible.
    In bygone days the State had a number of dredgers in permanent use, including the old Sisyphus. All that ended in the 1970's. Now the State has NO means of maintaining harbours. The port development, EU funded , at Belleview included building 3 Groines from opposite shore to speed flow and move mud , which it did , but is now silting up Cheekpoint boat harbour. Dredging would be needed twice a year to keep Cheekpoint open-if we had a dredger. Dredging is part of all Harbour endeavours but we wait to be buried before getting in somebody to do it for us. Whitegate was always short of depth and operated boating in the highwater window. The State inherited a range of ports and dredgers but being Sea Blind they pushed it into the Private sector and the lucrative tender business. Our only hope for the future is to educate a range of Hydraulic Engineers and have such a Department in the Office of Public Works. Perhaps build hydraulic models of our major ports for College instruction and experimentation. Doing nothing is not an option. We are an Island.

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  7. #154
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    Most of the general public are unaware of the progress in nuclear energy.

    Interesting presentations here on future energy requirements via Gen IV Thorium technology such as Molten Salt Reactors.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHO1ebNxhVI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs8p8rYRLBM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7o9Uu0ey2s

    Recently the Japanese Government has placed Gen IV Thorium as the priority future energy strategy, which is likely to act as a catalyst in terms of the investment and backing the Thorium sector needed.
    Last edited by Anzac; 9th August 2019 at 12:51.

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  9. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    In bygone days the State had a number of dredgers in permanent use, including the old Sisyphus. All that ended in the 1970's. Now the State has NO means of maintaining harbours. The port development, EU funded , at Belleview included building 3 Groines from opposite shore to speed flow and move mud , which it did , but is now silting up Cheekpoint boat harbour. Dredging would be needed twice a year to keep Cheekpoint open-if we had a dredger. Dredging is part of all Harbour endeavours but we wait to be buried before getting in somebody to do it for us. Whitegate was always short of depth and operated boating in the highwater window. The State inherited a range of ports and dredgers but being Sea Blind they pushed it into the Private sector and the lucrative tender business. Our only hope for the future is to educate a range of Hydraulic Engineers and have such a Department in the Office of Public Works. Perhaps build hydraulic models of our major ports for College instruction and experimentation. Doing nothing is not an option. We are an Island.
    We are indeed an island but one made of small silos. I do not think that the State should be in control of everything but there are certain strategic infrastructure items which need the state to be in-control. Ports and other marine infrastructure are ones along with airports and roads. As we are a small nation we do not need loads of different port authorities all battling against each other, just look at what happened with the HSE. It would be better to have a strong single Port Authority developing and maintaining out port capacity for the overall good of the nation. A single independent authority would have the resources to conduct the necessary research, educate hydraulic engineers and maintain the equipment to ensure the operation of their ports.

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  11. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    We are indeed an island but one made of small silos. I do not think that the State should be in control of everything but there are certain strategic infrastructure items which need the state to be in-control. Ports and other marine infrastructure are ones along with airports and roads. As we are a small nation we do not need loads of different port authorities all battling against each other, just look at what happened with the HSE. It would be better to have a strong single Port Authority developing and maintaining out port capacity for the overall good of the nation. A single independent authority would have the resources to conduct the necessary research, educate hydraulic engineers and maintain the equipment to ensure the operation of their ports.
    In the model of Port Ownership I think we decided (as we do many times) to follow the UK's policy on Ports rather than other EU nations policies (though it can go the other way in some states), I'm not sure now if we could get away with bringing them into one entity in regards to EU rules. But yes it can be frustrating when you have the Ports acting against each other at times.

  12. #157
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    The ports? The south of dublin port is competing with the north.
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  13. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The ports? The south of dublin port is competing with the north.
    No like how Waterford objected to planning for Ringaskiddy's development as a tactical move, just increases costs long term.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    Most of the general public are unaware of the progress in nuclear energy.

    Interesting presentations here on future energy requirements via Gen IV Thorium technology such as Molten Salt Reactors.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHO1ebNxhVI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs8p8rYRLBM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7o9Uu0ey2s

    Recently the Japanese Government has placed Gen IV Thorium as the priority future energy strategy, which is likely to act as a catalyst in terms of the investment and backing the Thorium sector needed.
    To be honest Thorium 90 and it's uses is not a Eureka moment. It has been used in nuclear energy but particularly when bombarded with neutrons, it becomes Uranium 233, a much used material for nuclear weapons. The promotion of its use has to overcome all the usual problems- mining- refining- cost of acquisition-illegal diversion to other uses such as U-233. Other than that No problem.

  15. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    To be honest Thorium 90 and it's uses is not a Eureka moment. It has been used in nuclear energy but particularly when bombarded with neutrons, it becomes Uranium 233, a much used material for nuclear weapons.
    Uranium-233 other than the odd research project has rarely been used for nuclear weapons as it is much shorter-lived than the uranium-235 and does not produce enough yield. There is no eureka moment but its prospects for being the only non intermittent baseline energy source that we know of that produces virtually zero carbon that can power cities like Tokyo that have the population of Canada, no wonder the Japanese (who know and have experienced the effects of old school nuclear energy) are banking on it, as are a number of countries. When people like Michael "Hockey Stick" Mann and James Hansen or NASA, leading Climate change scientists endorse it to combat climate change, then I tend to sit up and take notice. More notice than some lobbyists for the commercially threaten renewable lobby.

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  17. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    Uranium-233 other than the odd research project has rarely been used for nuclear weapons as it is much shorter-lived than the uranium-235 and does not produce enough yield. There is no eureka moment but its prospects for being the only non intermittent baseline energy source that we know of that produces virtually zero carbon that can power cities like Tokyo that have the population of Canada, no wonder the Japanese (who know and have experienced the effects of old school nuclear energy) are banking on it, as are a number of countries. When people like Michael "Hockey Stick" Mann and James Hansen or NASA, leading Climate change scientists endorse it to combat climate change, then I tend to sit up and take notice. More notice than some lobbyists for the commercially threaten renewable lobby.
    Just pointing out that it had and has a weapon use. Thorium is present in Ireland in varying quantities. Irish geophysicists have done an aerial mapping exercise. It has already been proposed, in the past few years, as a possible fuel for small Thermal Breeder reactors. I am for clean energy, once the major radiation hazards are minimised. With the development of Thermal breeders in India , China, Canada, and now Japan there will be a depth of knowledge to allow us to make a sensible decision. From what I have read about Thorium it requires a high degree of handling in the matter of gamma Radiation. As I have said once it is a sure footed process let us consider it as an option in clean sustainable energy.

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  19. #162
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    When port management went private, the very first thing that happened was that management slashed jobs, awarded themselves huge pay rises and end user costs rose accordingly. Having charge of docks and wharves went from being a tedious civil service job to being a ticket to the lottery.

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  21. #163
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    On the other hand, work practices before privatisation were highly inefficient, rife with nepotism and cronyism, all the while being both a dangerous and humiliating place to work. Those who worked dockside were "picked" by foremen depending on the work to be done. Friends and those who were owed favours were first to get work. Many did not do any work but still got paid. Many more who turned up to get work, were not picked and went home literally empty handed, hoping that tomorrow would be a better day.
    I remember being dockside in an irish port while a ship was departing. One "docker" was present. It was a relatively long ship and the pilot was keen to get going. Call came to let go and docker saunters to take off forward. I offered to let go aft as I was standing next to it and lines were slack. "No panic" he says. Meanwhile crew are waiting impatiently to bring lines in and are wondering why I, still in overalls having just got off the ship I was then working on, would not let go.
    Eventually said docker wanders over and let's go the lines next to me. "I get paid for all the lines" was his obtuse observation.
    Privatisation wiped out this nonsense and dockside became a safer place to work. Less accidents with overloaded cranes collapsing, less falls from height while working cargo. A much more tidy dockside.
    The change from corkdocks to Port of Cork was dramatic in its positivity. I am certain many card schools suffered as a result of the changes though.
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  23. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    On the other hand, work practices before privatisation were highly inefficient, rife with nepotism and cronyism, all the while being both a dangerous and humiliating place to work. Those who worked dockside were "picked" by foremen depending on the work to be done. Friends and those who were owed favours were first to get work. Many did not do any work but still got paid. Many more who turned up to get work, were not picked and went home literally empty handed, hoping that tomorrow would be a better day.
    I remember being dockside in an irish port while a ship was departing. One "docker" was present. It was a relatively long ship and the pilot was keen to get going. Call came to let go and docker saunters to take off forward. I offered to let go aft as I was standing next to it and lines were slack. "No panic" he says. Meanwhile crew are waiting impatiently to bring lines in and are wondering why I, still in overalls having just got off the ship I was then working on, would not let go.
    Eventually said docker wanders over and let's go the lines next to me. "I get paid for all the lines" was his obtuse observation.
    Privatisation wiped out this nonsense and dockside became a safer place to work. Less accidents with overloaded cranes collapsing, less falls from height while working cargo. A much more tidy dockside.
    The change from corkdocks to Port of Cork was dramatic in its positivity. I am certain many card schools suffered as a result of the changes though.
    In general I agree with the outline sentiments of Gone to the Canner. Part of the problem were the work practices on the Docks and on the Ships, where the Unions where controlled by, and owned by Families who still surface on the wrong side of the law. However the Government is responsible for running the country and MUST control and oversee vital services such as Transport, Communications, Defence, Security, and Social matters. People who actually run most of these services have a different set of priorities , often killing off viable projects, in the interests of expediency or windfalls.
    In these Brexit days the Government needs to take the reins.

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  25. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    On the other hand, work practices before privatisation were highly inefficient, rife with nepotism and cronyism, all the while being both a dangerous and humiliating place to work. Those who worked dockside were "picked" by foremen depending on the work to be done. Friends and those who were owed favours were first to get work. Many did not do any work but still got paid. Many more who turned up to get work, were not picked and went home literally empty handed, hoping that tomorrow would be a better day.
    I remember being dockside in an irish port while a ship was departing. One "docker" was present. It was a relatively long ship and the pilot was keen to get going. Call came to let go and docker saunters to take off forward. I offered to let go aft as I was standing next to it and lines were slack. "No panic" he says. Meanwhile crew are waiting impatiently to bring lines in and are wondering why I, still in overalls having just got off the ship I was then working on, would not let go.
    Eventually said docker wanders over and let's go the lines next to me. "I get paid for all the lines" was his obtuse observation.
    Privatisation wiped out this nonsense and dockside became a safer place to work. Less accidents with overloaded cranes collapsing, less falls from height while working cargo. A much more tidy dockside.
    The change from corkdocks to Port of Cork was dramatic in its positivity. I am certain many card schools suffered as a result of the changes though.
    Totally agree with a lot, but the question is and it is not just for ports; why could it not be accomplished by a semi-state if the political will was there.

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  27. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    Most of the general public are unaware of the progress in nuclear energy.

    Interesting presentations here on future energy requirements via Gen IV Thorium technology such as Molten Salt Reactors.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHO1ebNxhVI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs8p8rYRLBM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7o9Uu0ey2s

    Recently the Japanese Government has placed Gen IV Thorium as the priority future energy strategy, which is likely to act as a catalyst in terms of the investment and backing the Thorium sector needed.
    MSRs are 50s tech. And currently they are trying to solve the corrosion problems posed by that kind of substance. Not holding my breath.

  28. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Totally agree with a lot, but the question is and it is not just for ports; why could it not be accomplished by a semi-state if the political will was there.
    I hate saying this but the route to political power and personal fortune is tied up in board appointments and granting of contracts. The Dail is largely composed of people who will never be poor again. They operate on a quid pro quo basis and think everybody in Government Service is doing the same. They have no idea what is required to run a proper Defence capability and are happy to make a few changes on a generational time scale. The equipment budget is never fit for purpose. They are currently short of 1000 personnel and see it as an annual saving of Euro20m and in no other way. Such money should be used in up-scaling Defence capability. In general polititians think they own the Gross revenue, while in Africa they keep it for themselves, in our case it's shared with those that will enhance their future. The BIG Fellows and Girls.

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  30. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    MSRs are 50s tech. And currently they are trying to solve the corrosion problems posed by that kind of substance. Not holding my breath.
    So fuel cells then must be 1830's tech, wind turbines 1880's tech, solar cells from the 1940's ... the corrosion issue was solved 45 years ago at Oak Ridge by using Hastelloy-N in the molten salt outlined in the Research Paper by JW Kroger titled:

    EVALUATION OF HASTELLOY N ALLOYS AFTER NINE YEARS EXPOSURE TO BOTH A MOLTEN FLUORIDE SALT AND AIR AT TEMPERATURES FROM 700 TO 560°C

    It was concluded from this experiment that Hastelloy N is suitable for long-term use as a container material for the molten salt used in this test and has acceptable air oxidation resistance at the temperatures tested. Core temperature of an active MSR is 500-600°C, at atmospheric pressure.

    Science and engineering does not stand still and of course both the Japanese and Chinese during the last decade have further refined the chemical engineering originally outlined by Kroger noting that further dense pure metal (Ni or Co) coatings on the can effectively hinder the penetration of the molten fluoride and thus improve the corrosion resistance of the substrate remarkably at temperatures in excess of 900 C.

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  32. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I hate saying this but the route to political power and personal fortune is tied up in board appointments and granting of contracts. The Dail is largely composed of people who will never be poor again. They operate on a quid pro quo basis and think everybody in Government Service is doing the same. They have no idea what is required to run a proper Defence capability and are happy to make a few changes on a generational time scale. The equipment budget is never fit for purpose. They are currently short of 1000 personnel and see it as an annual saving of Euro20m and in no other way. Such money should be used in up-scaling Defence capability. In general polititians think they own the Gross revenue, while in Africa they keep it for themselves, in our case it's shared with those that will enhance their future. The BIG Fellows and Girls.
    There is a history of the Irish Maritime scene, which was put together by Mr Basil Peterson and the then Irish Shipping Limited in 1961/62. It has a foreword by Taoiseach Sean Lemass and a comment by the relevant Minister Erskine Childers. The book is called " THE TURN OF THE TIDE " and outlines the shortage of Maritime capability pre WW11 and the effort to cobble together a 16 ship Merchant Service to supply our needs during that war.
    A study was undertaken, and a post war aspiration was put in place that being caught without resources and a means to guard them would never happen again. The outcome was the foundation of a Naval Service as part of the PDF and an intention to achieve a 200,000 DWT deep sea Cargo fleet. Initially the aspiration took off with the State Shipping company buiding up to 24 ships, some at home in the New Ship Building Yard at Cork.
    However in the 1980's the visionary Sean Lemass was well gone, and before that decade had elapsed, both the illustrious ISL and VCD were gone. In the circumstances we have NO deep sea Fleet and the Naval Service is struggling . I'm afraid that THE TURN OF THE TIDE was overtaken by a self inflicted Tsunami. The Book is worth having on the shelf with Tables showing the growing fleet right up to the Cliff edge.

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  34. #170
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    Whatever about a naval fleet, what state still operates, or has a share in, modern merchant vessels? In europe, privatisation of all state assets seem to have been the legacy of the 80s. We still have quite a decent tonnage under irish flags or irish ownership
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Whatever about a naval fleet, what state still operates, or has a share in, modern merchant vessels? In europe, privatisation of all state assets seem to have been the legacy of the 80s. We still have quite a decent tonnage under irish flags or irish ownership
    The list of ships regularly servicing Irish Ports North and South does not contain cargo ships flagged in this state except for some of Irish Ferries. Arklow ships come and go as tramps , not as dedicated cargo liners, and some of those are not Irish Flagged by dispute with Government.
    The Register up to 1955 was maintained by Board of Trade and is available on BT files. The Multifaceted site maintained by Mr. Ross's Department doesn't display the current list of the Register of Cargo ships. AFAIK no reputable Irish Company, servicing Ireland , owns deepsea tonnage. There are one or two cattle boats knocking about.
    A sole Island is sea dependent for import/Export. I'm sure AP Moeller was not impeded by his Government in owning almost a 1000 large ships. The bigger players internationally are owned in the Far East-all State owned. We are too small to depend on others and in conflict will again be found wanting.
    On the 17/18 August there were 20 ship movements in Dublin, 3 of those were Irish Ferries, the rest were non-Irish. Our Marine Development Office is hiding and missing Sean Lemass.

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  37. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The list of ships regularly servicing Irish Ports North and South does not contain cargo ships flagged in this state except for some of Irish Ferries. Arklow ships come and go as tramps , not as dedicated cargo liners, and some of those are not Irish Flagged by dispute with Government.
    The Register up to 1955 was maintained by Board of Trade and is available on BT files. The Multifaceted site maintained by Mr. Ross's Department doesn't display the current list of the Register of Cargo ships. AFAIK no reputable Irish Company, servicing Ireland , owns deepsea tonnage. There are one or two cattle boats knocking about.
    A sole Island is sea dependent for import/Export. I'm sure AP Moeller was not impeded by his Government in owning almost a 1000 large ships. The bigger players internationally are owned in the Far East-all State owned. We are too small to depend on others and in conflict will again be found wanting.
    On the 17/18 August there were 20 ship movements in Dublin, 3 of those were Irish Ferries, the rest were non-Irish. Our Marine Development Office is hiding and missing Sean Lemass.
    Regretfully I am wrong about Irish Ferries ( rump of ISL and B&I ) they have flagged out all of their vessels to Cyprus, mainly, and mostly foreign crew their vessels.

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  39. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Regretfully I am wrong about Irish Ferries ( rump of ISL and B&I ) they have flagged out all of their vessels to Cyprus, mainly, and mostly foreign crew their vessels.
    To maintain our need for goods and services there were almost 13,000 movements of Marine traffic in Irish Ports in 2017. If we strip out tiddlers there were about 9000 medium to large ship movements or roughly 30 ships per day every day. Irish Shipping is now gone 30 years and Irish Flagged ships are scarce. It seems we are not providing any of the means to maintain our trade. The Irish Marine Development Office seems to be a collector of Statistics with little development of a Merchant Fleet potential.
    With no home based Merchant fleet the politicians are trying to build one ( Merchant Shipping Act 2014 ) by encouraging others to flag in, like they do in mini countries like Malta, Cyprus, Marshall Islands, Panama, Liberia.
    As a matter of Interest Cork handled 18m tonnes of shipped goods in 2017, and has a repair facility up to 20,000t +/-. Dublin handled 175m tonnes and has shut down their repair facility. In the 13,000 ship movements nationally about 4000+ were ships with dimensions beyond any drydock facility in Ireland. In 1984 we could tick most of the boxes on ships and ship repairs , now we are utterly dependent on uncontrollable entities.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 24th August 2019 at 11:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    As a matter of Interest Cork handled 18m tonnes of shipped goods in 2017, and has a repair facility up to 20,000t +/-. Dublin handled 175m tonnes and has shut down their repair facility. In the 13,000 ship movements nationally about 4000+ were ships with dimensions beyond any drydock facility in Ireland. In 1984 we could tick most of the boxes on ships and ship repairs , now we are utterly dependent on uncontrollable entities.
    It is my opinion that the development of Cork Lower Harbour ( Ringaskiddy Bay ) is going to lead to major congestion, especially when all the coastal aspects and container handling facilities are added in to the same area. It is obvious a new port should have been planned to prevent a choke point occurring between White Point and the Naval base. In Ringaskiddy Bay all ships will be maneuvering in the same basin area requiring a hierarchy or Rota for permission to depart or arrive. The same general area is also used for shipping to and from Cork Drydocks.

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