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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    This guy will be good! I've been around a long time and know what it takes . He didn't go for a commission for the craic.

    In recent years because of high turnover numbers through natural wastage only those without the ambition and drive and motivation to do the job againts the odds have stayed. I reckon any guy who takes a pay cut to go through the cadet school for 18 months and then go through the physical and mental shit, go back to the end of the food chain has a half arsed chance of becoming a reasonable officer if he is teamed up with the right mentors and digs in and gets on with the job. Its a bit like the Gardai where the 19 years old spotty 500 point leaving cert guy is no longer the ideal candidate. Maturity will win through. A twenty something guy with some decent time behind him is where the DF will find its new leaders.
    Cant disagree with much of what you say and all the best to that young man as he begins his career.

    Unfortunately, as we are all aware, with the economy growing and a plentiful supply of private sector jobs, many of those who have the intelligence, capability, drive and personal ambition will leave for greener pastures.

    Those who remain on largely fall into one of two categories.

    1. Those who always had a career horn and will do all it takes to get as high up the food chain as possible. For those individuals, the higher they go, the less it becomes about the organisation and the more it becomes about them. There are exceptions, but they are most definitely the exception.

    2. Those who lack the ability, ambition, drive etc to work a private sector job. There are very few things that will earn you a p45 in the DF, very few. For a lot of people, the DF is a cushy job. Plenty of 'local arrangements', a completely broken performance appraisal system which counts for SFA if you happen to know the interview board for promotion. An officer joining at 22/23 now can realistically expect to make Lt Col at a minimum provided they simply do the time. Plenty of people happy to 'mark time' rather than tackle a more challenging private sector job.

    Neither of these two groups are good for a variety of reasons which don't need to be explained.

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  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    I reckon any guy who takes a pay cut to go through the cadet school for 18 months.
    Any currently serving personnel who are awarded a cadetship stay on the same pay increment they were on prior to commencing their training unless at any point it becomes lower than that of a cadet and the cadetship is 15 months approx but due to scheduling changes this class did close to 16.

    It was also a spotty leaving cert student who was the senior cadet captain and won best overall cadet.

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  5. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    Those who lack the ability, ambition, drive etc to work a private sector job. Plenty of people happy to 'mark time' rather than tackle a more challenging private sector job.
    A fairly dis-ingenuous generalisation there Chuck. There's very few private sector jobs that are "challenging" in any way other than whatever artificial stressors are applied to staff, eg. financial targets, time pressures, etc.
    The vast majority of people in the private sector face the same levels of repetition, boredom and lack of advancement that soldiers can face.

    Most of the people in what you call "challenging" private sector jobs probably gravitate towards them because they like a challenge, etc. In much the same way people join the military for a challenge, "a life less ordinary" or variety. And of those the higher performers gravitate towards further challenges in command, special forces, niche specialties, etc. Not so different to private sector.
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

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  7. #29
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    In the days of Alexander, old soldier said new soldier had it easier

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  9. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    A fairly dis-ingenuous generalisation there Chuck. There's very few private sector jobs that are "challenging" in any way other than whatever artificial stressors are applied to staff, eg. financial targets, time pressures, etc.
    The vast majority of people in the private sector face the same levels of repetition, boredom and lack of advancement that soldiers can face.

    Most of the people in what you call "challenging" private sector jobs probably gravitate towards them because they like a challenge, etc. In much the same way people join the military for a challenge, "a life less ordinary" or variety. And of those the higher performers gravitate towards further challenges in command, special forces, niche specialties, etc. Not so different to private sector.
    You've deliberately and selectively taken two lines from my comment and ignored the several sentences in between.

    The point I was attempting to make was that there are plenty, across all ranks, who lack ambition and this lack of ambition is fueled by virtue of the fact that it is almost impossible to be discharged.

    For those people, the challenge in a private sector job is that it is likely that unless you perform to the desired standard, you may lose your job. Not so with the DF. You may get a poor performance appraisal but you'll still get your wages into the bank every week which is what puts food on the table.

    I'm not sure how you can label targets as "artificial stressors". They are not artificial as they form a key function in how and entity is run.

    Your post comes across as a bit of an apologist to be honest. Yes, there will be those who will push to better themselves but they are in the minority. Most are happy to mark time, in my own experience. Historically there has always been a good proportion of people who join the DF purely for a secure income. They certainly outweigh those who join "for a life less ordinary".

    @jack08 - Im not sure if your comment is directed at my post but if you were to ask anyone who has been involved with Cadet training and selection over the past 15-20 years they will tell you their is a stark difference in the quality of the end product. We are now in prime millennial era and it shows. Comfort blankets anyone?
    Last edited by Chuck; 12th February 2019 at 19:45.

  10. #31
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    I bet if you asked anyone 20 years ago what the quality of new officers, cadets, NCO, Pte’s or recruits they would say the same thing. Then go back another 20 years, same answer. These new people are just not as good....

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  12. #32
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    Lets be honest, the officer ranks in the Irish Defence forces contain a lot of chocolate fireguards. The ones who couldn't get a job in civvy st even if they tried. Eternally engaged in the quest to find th eeasy life, no matter what that means to the troops under them, or the organisation as a whole. The last ones standing when promotions were given out. Many made it to general rank. I can think of three right away.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  14. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack08 View Post
    I bet if you asked anyone 20 years ago what the quality of new officers, cadets, NCO, Pte’s or recruits they would say the same thing. Then go back another 20 years, same answer. These new people are just not as good....
    At a very basic level, the ability to put students, cadets or otherwise through robust training has diminished incredibly.

    Thats before you consider the drastic change in attitude of those joining the DF.

    Training today is less demanding, less robust, and far more prone to letting unsuitable people slip through the net than it was 10/15/20 years ago.

    The trend overall is consistently trending downwards. Certainly in initial training.

  15. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post
    Lets be honest, the officer ranks in the Irish Defence forces contain a lot of chocolate fireguards. The ones who couldn't get a job in civvy st even if they tried. Eternally engaged in the quest to find th eeasy life, no matter what that means to the troops under them, or the organisation as a whole. The last ones standing when promotions were given out. Many made it to general rank. I can think of three right away.
    Let's be very honest. In addition to officers there are plenty of NCOs who are eternally engaged in maintaining the easy life to the detriment of those under them. There are some incredibly incompetent SNCOs who have been allowed progress by virtue of an appraisal system which rewards getting out of bed and dressing yourself with a "VERY GOOD".

    The problem is widespread and across all ranks.

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  17. #35
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    ...and you also have the ability to challenge any negative finding against you and win out; didnt get promoted? throw a shoe and you will get the stripe/pip/extra money/new badge. I always remember the old joke about fellas getting a pension for "21 years of undetected crime" and I can think of dozens of people that I encountered who fitted that bill exactly. Chuck, as an aside, I heard your exact complaint about newbies from one of our airline's Captains. the candiates are passing and getting the job but they are not what they used to be. Specifically, he didnt get the vibe off some of them that they had leadership potential and an airline needs good leaders at all levels.

  18. #36
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    I read lately that the first female F16 demo pilot, in the USAF, was stood down from her role, not long after taking up the slot, and the phrase used was "loss of confidence". Now, from what I gather, this is the modern equivalent of the old Section 168, which was a catch-all means of charging you with something. She's still flying but dirtied her bib and lost the prime slot...Further reading tells me that the US military takes crime and punishment very seriously, to a scale unknown in the DF and getting sacked or jailed is quite common. I also found a list of recent UK arrests and punishments in the UK Forces and a serious amount of people got sacked, jailed, cashiered,etc, especially for fraud, theft, assault, AWOL, etc, etc and a common and feared punishment was time in Colchester Military Detention centre. No cushy "fined a tenner...march him out!". I guess the DF has gone too soft on crime...

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  20. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    I read lately that the first female F16 demo pilot, in the USAF, was stood down from her role, not long after taking up the slot, and the phrase used was "loss of confidence". Now, from what I gather, this is the modern equivalent of the old Section 168, which was a catch-all means of charging you with something. She's still flying but dirtied her bib and lost the prime slot...Further reading tells me that the US military takes crime and punishment very seriously, to a scale unknown in the DF and getting sacked or jailed is quite common. I also found a list of recent UK arrests and punishments in the UK Forces and a serious amount of people got sacked, jailed, cashiered,etc, especially for fraud, theft, assault, AWOL, etc, etc and a common and feared punishment was time in Colchester Military Detention centre. No cushy "fined a tenner...march him out!". I guess the DF has gone too soft on crime...
    One only has to look at some of the determinations that have been handed down by Courts Martial to see that the system is soft.

    People committed of serious civilian offences such as assault, possession etc should be turfed out without any comeback on conviction.

    Trying to get rid of a bad egg takes years.

  21. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    I read lately that the first female F16 demo pilot, in the USAF, was stood down from her role, not long after taking up the slot, and the phrase used was "loss of confidence". Now, from what I gather, this is the modern equivalent of the old Section 168, which was a catch-all means of charging you with something. She's still flying but dirtied her bib and lost the prime slot...Further reading tells me that the US military takes crime and punishment very seriously, to a scale unknown in the DF and getting sacked or jailed is quite common. I also found a list of recent UK arrests and punishments in the UK Forces and a serious amount of people got sacked, jailed, cashiered,etc, especially for fraud, theft, assault, AWOL, etc, etc and a common and feared punishment was time in Colchester Military Detention centre. No cushy "fined a tenner...march him out!". I guess the DF has gone too soft on crime...
    Adultery whilst on operations is a sackable offence in the US Forces I believe.

    AWOL in the UK military you'll usually get day for day in the Military Corrective Training Centre (up to a certain level) unless there are mitigating circumstances. There was recently a R IRISH soldier in there who got arrested after going AWOL after his R&R from a HERRICK tour...about ten years ago. He was serving about two years.

    The MCTC system streams you into one of two companies; one which focuses on military training and preparing you to pick up your career again, the other prepares you for civilian life. Certain offences mean you'll only ever end up being streamed as a 'leaver'...eg drugs, illegal porn etc. I believe they can accept people who have been sentenced up to three years. Officers have to go to a civilian prison. I knew a Sapper who broke another soldiers jaw...got something like six months...and soldiered on. Your pay and pension gets stopped whilst you are inside too...so theres a big financial hit.


    Its dying a death though; theres rarely more than 40-50 inmates in a place built and staffed to house three times that number.
    'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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  23. #39
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    It still seems to put the fear of God in serving soldiers. "Colly" doesn't appear to be taken lightly.....as for today's youngsters, I was talking today with one of my colleagues about it and we both, without prompting, named the same guy from our current apprentice intake, who's a bit of a slow starter. Bright guy, but needs a push to get him going. Conversely, we have another guy, who's a bit like Richard Hammond; a bit mouthy, a bit smug, a bit over confident for a guy with less time in service than my hi-viz vest, so we have two guys nudging either end of the scale and not yet wise enough to centre the needle. Not bad lads but needing adjustment.

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  25. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    That doesn't surprise me at all. The 18-23 year olds entering the real world now have been groomed and molly coddled and told that they are gods gift to society and that society should respond as such.

    Unfortunately for a lot of young adults entering the workplace now, they are only receiving criticism for the first time and it is often not taken very well. A lot is due to the left/liberal, entitlement culture that has gripped Ireland in the last 5-8 years.

    I suspect that the airlines will adjust their personality tests to try and weed out the less desirable millennials. Perhaps the DF might follow suit. Knowing how it adjusts to cultural trends, that'll probably happen in 20 years.
    Yep. the teenagers coming through now have all being given a medal for taken part in a sports day, even the losers, No one now knows that you have to establish yourself in the pecking order with effort. The lefty agenda is slowly destroying the wests success due to hard work and ability.

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