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  1. #26
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    The UK coast guard are replacing their 139s with 189s for SAR work......re the French replacement post above, it's essentially bringing the greater mass of the fleet out of the 1970s and 80s. The manufacturer is probably fed up with having to keep making parts for legacy aircraft and will be quite happy to see the back of them.

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  3. #27
    CQMS The Usual Suspect's Avatar
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    Joint Light Helicopter H160M Guépard (Cheetah)

    Like the design availability rate of 95%, the whole Joint Light Helicopter concept, and the cascade of benefits that flow from the ability to consolidate the state helicopter fleet.

    In itself it appears to be a worthy successor to the Dauphin/Panther retaining that type's performance and range.

    French appear to be moving towards a clear light/medium/heavy fleet structure; featuring H160M Cheetah/NH90/Carachal.

    You would have to think that this will be a credible alternative by the time the 'Don are next looking, especially if that availability rate holds up.
    Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 28th May 2019 at 15:06.
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  4. #28
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    New NH90 Variant: Maritime Tactical Transport (MTT)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    I'm open to correction, but I believe the Brits have retro-fitted folding rotors on everything from Chinooks to Apaches, at least temporarily.

    US Marines, for the most part, use frankencopters.. blend of Navalised/Unnavalised.
    Frankencopter - Maritime Tactical Transport (MTT) now available as third general variant of NH90.
    Diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means - Zhou Enlai

  5. #29
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    Frankencopter - Maritime Tactical Transport (MTT) now available as third general variant of NH90.
    If we were to look the NH90 we’d need our heads examining

    Major issues in Australia, Finland, Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand and Sweden.

    Part of that is possibly a lot of localisation (eg different specs, local manufacturing etc)

  6. #30
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    Back in the 2001 White paper, there was a plan to have 3 types of Heli in the Defence Forces.
    LUH (Light Utility Helicopter) for Pilot training, liason, and other tasks as required. Replacing the job then being done by Gazelle. Also being able to train pilots for GASU, who then used the Twin Squirrel.
    UH (Utility Helicopter) for troop transport, VIP transport, air ambulance etc. Replacing the job once done by Alouette III and Dauphin
    MLH (Medium Lift Helicopter) for troop transport and SAR, back when we did that. Replacing the job once done by the Puma we had for a wet weekend, and the S61 we had for a similarly short moment in time.


    LUH became the EC135 (Now the Airbus H135) at a time when GASU also started using EC135, though theirs had a different powerplant.
    UH became the Green painted civvy air taxi that is the AW139, painted to look like what is now an AW149.

    MLH died a death. We selected the S92, but the makers of the Super puma Mk2 (which did not yet exist) were unhappy with the tender process, so we got none, and the cash was spent on Mowags for Cav instead. In the meantime, the Air Corps lost Search and rescue completely.

    Do not concern yourself with what France choses. It will do whatever its Aircraft industry tells them to do. They will only select a french designed, built or partly french designed/built aircraft. Not because it is right for the role. Thing is, the Armee de l'Air, Marine Nationale and ALAT will take an originally unsuitable aircraft, and get the manufacturers to tweak it to fit their purpose properly, because of the volume of aircraft they will procure. We do not have that luxury.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  8. #31
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Back in the 2001 White paper, there was a plan to have 3 types of Heli in the Defence Forces.
    LUH (Light Utility Helicopter) for Pilot training, liason, and other tasks as required. Replacing the job then being done by Gazelle. Also being able to train pilots for GASU, who then used the Twin Squirrel.
    UH (Utility Helicopter) for troop transport, VIP transport, air ambulance etc. Replacing the job once done by Alouette III and Dauphin
    MLH (Medium Lift Helicopter) for troop transport and SAR, back when we did that. Replacing the job once done by the Puma we had for a wet weekend, and the S61 we had for a similarly short moment in time.
    See post 53

    Thing is, the Armee de l'Air, Marine Nationale and ALAT will take an originally unsuitable aircraft, and get the manufacturers to tweak it to fit their purpose properly, because of the volume of aircraft they will procure. We do not have that luxury.
    which is why we need to buy suitable aircraft off the shelf .... unfortunately we order civvy aircraft to our own specs and the result is .... issues and costs

  9. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    See post 53

    which is why we need to buy suitable aircraft off the shelf .... unfortunately we order civvy aircraft to our own specs and the result is .... issues and costs
    There is no post 53
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
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  11. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    There is no post 53
    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...l=1#post459859

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  13. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    If we were to look the NH90 we’d need our heads examining

    Major issues in Australia, Finland, Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand and Sweden.

    Part of that is possibly a lot of localisation (eg different specs, local manufacturing etc)
    The RNZAF NH90's are fine, though I accept others have had problems when they have tried to bespoke them for their own needs rather than take one off the main production line. Cleared by an Auditor General Report. The only issue was the big leap of a learning curve and time to IOC from a 60's Huey to a modern fairly large helo, though it did take time for the OEM support to ramp up from the manufacturers end - something the US are very much better organised at doing. Only real problem now was that 10 were requested by Defence to meet tasking tempo's and they got 8 off a miserly GOTD and the auto-folding rotors were not acquired to save money which has limited some deployment. The Maritime TTH variant should do well as there is a need for a 10-15 tonne helo for amphibious support. The biggest issue is that they are expensive.

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  15. #35
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    The RNZAF NH90's are fine, though I accept others have had problems when they have tried to bespoke them for their own needs rather than take one off the main production line. Cleared by an Auditor General Report. The only issue was the big leap of a learning curve and time to IOC from a 60's Huey to a modern fairly large helo, though it did take time for the OEM support to ramp up from the manufacturers end - something the US are very much better organised at doing. Only real problem now was that 10 were requested by Defence to meet tasking tempo's and they got 8 off a miserly GOTD and the auto-folding rotors were not acquired to save money which has limited some deployment. The Maritime TTH variant should do well as there is a need for a 10-15 tonne helo for amphibious support. The biggest issue is that they are expensive.
    That’s good in that case (I was basing that on the need for retrofitting helicopters after delivery in order to meet the delivery specs and their grounding in 2017)

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    That’s good in that case (I was basing that on the need for retrofitting helicopters after delivery in order to meet the delivery specs and their grounding in 2017)
    The truth Dev is that the fleet were never grounded following the engine cutout incident at Marlborough. The "grounding" was a media invention to sensationalise the incident. The NH90's were briefly given a temporary stand down until an inspection was made as as per incident procedure and warranty, then soon cleared for limited flight ops that excluded higher load weights and over water flights as a precautionary measure until fully cleared by the ACC. Aircraft fixed at landing site via an engine swap in the field and flown home.

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  18. #37
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    Getting back to a the idea of a Future Common Helicopter Fleet for the AC/CG/NS/Ambulance/Garda in my view the roles and capabilities required are so widely different it would make this difficult. For example the tactical manoeuver of a platoon sized infantry requires at least a rotary capability with 9-10 fully laden troops (plus aircrew) which predicates a medium utility helicopter (thus 3 MUH to manoever the platoon in a single wave), noting that it will have to have both armoured and electronic self-protection amongst other things to be able to live in a UNSC Chp VII environment. These are not plug and play things but are expensive upgrades that have to be built into the airframe.

    On the other hand this would be over-kill for the Air Policing role and the Medevac role, noting both the huge cost disparity of a milspec platform to a civilian workhorse in both acquisition terms and cost per flying hour. Flight training again is another issue as a medium utility helicopter has up to 5 times the cpfh of a LUH.

    There are such a wide range of requirements to solve that if a rationalised solution for Irish state supported rotary operations was sought for all players possibly at best two platforms, a LUH and MUH, could manage this, but there will still be compromises.

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  20. #38
    Sergeant Major EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    Getting back to a the idea of a Future Common Helicopter Fleet for the AC/CG/NS/Ambulance/Garda in my view the roles and capabilities required are so widely different it would make this difficult. For example the tactical manoeuver of a platoon sized infantry requires at least a rotary capability with 9-10 fully laden troops (plus aircrew) which predicates a medium utility helicopter (thus 3 MUH to manoever the platoon in a single wave), noting that it will have to have both armoured and electronic self-protection amongst other things to be able to live in a UNSC Chp VII environment. These are not plug and play things but are expensive upgrades that have to be built into the airframe.

    On the other hand this would be over-kill for the Air Policing role and the Medevac role, noting both the huge cost disparity of a milspec platform to a civilian workhorse in both acquisition terms and cost per flying hour. Flight training again is another issue as a medium utility helicopter has up to 5 times the cpfh of a LUH.

    There are such a wide range of requirements to solve that if a rationalised solution for Irish state supported rotary operations was sought for all players possibly at best two platforms, a LUH and MUH, could manage this, but there will still be compromises.
    This is then the NH90/A109 pairing, a classical Hi/Lo mixed fleet.
    One size rarely fits all.

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