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  • I have heard this said before.
    As for the Army Mutiny of 1924, I think we can safely say there is now nobody serving that fought in the War of Independence and the Civil war. The Government shouldn't fear the Army any more.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
      I have heard this said before.
      As for the Army Mutiny of 1924, I think we can safely say there is now nobody serving that fought in the War of Independence and the Civil war. The Government shouldn't fear the Army any more.
      What about the "Civic Guard Mutiny" in 1922.
      Even in this day and age some people have a fit when they see Gardai carrying firearms, let alone when they discharge them in the course of duty.
      Last edited by CTU; 28 May 2020, 19:32.
      It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
      It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
      It was a new age...It was the end of history.
      It was the year everything changed.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
        This report as usual shows how little the Government consider the Reserve.

        A report entitled makes no mention of the Reserve, even though it is just as part of the DF as our Permanent Colleagues ; each of the topics are just as worthy in their own right for us as the PDF .
        Was going to make a similar point, I think there are loads of things lost in the discussion of retention, and how its not simply driven by poor pay. But what seems to be entirely neglected is the concept of reserve service. There definitely has to be some acceptance that the DF and military's in general will struggle to retain personnel (even outside this current crisis). You have highly trained, committed people in often demanding jobs who may want a change in pay, family life, life goals, career progression etc, but when they leave here you simply lose them.

        A functioning reserve (both 1st line and 2nd) serves to maintain and hold key competencies and skills in reserve so you can call upon it. But that relies heavily on both a commitment to maintaining and training a reserve, but also that your personnel are leaving with a certain amount of goodwill (which certainly won't exist if you don't treat them well and they leave on bad terms).

        Its not in anyway a golden bullet, but its an important discussion that is needed as part of a multifaceted approach to retention, but completely neglected at a policy level.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CTU View Post
          What about the "Civic Guard Mutiny" in 1922.
          Even in this day and age some people have a fit when they see Gardai carrying firearms, let alone when they discharge them in the course of duty.
          You mean the "Kildare Civic Guard mutiny"?
          That was more a matter of policy brought over from the Unarmed DMP. First Commissioner Staines said "we will not succeed by force of arms alone, but by moral authority, and the will of the people" or words to that effect.
          They had come from a nasty period of policing enforced by the armed RIC and RIC Auxiliary force. They felt they could do better. However when the Commissioner of the day is also a sitting TD, during a civil war the ethos is going to be a bit too political for some.
          It was lipservice though, and all we had was an unarmed uniformed force. Throw a jumper over the blue shirt, and you could carry whatever artillery you were qualified to fire, and up to the mid 90s, everyone was trained to fire the pistol, and should your super be so inclined, any garda who wanted to could qualify on the Uzi too.
          AGS had to use their firearms many times over the history of the force, and there was very little in the way of wailing from the backbenches in the Dail when it happened.
          If anything, it's status as an unarmed force has been more of a burden than is obvious, as the average member has little awareness of how to act when either the target, or your colleague, is armed, with tragic results in some cases.
          But the Dail does not fear An Garda Siochana.
          However AGS does not fear the Dail either, nor should it.
          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CTU View Post
            What about the "Civic Guard Mutiny" in 1922.
            Even in this day and age some people have a fit when they see Gardai carrying firearms, let alone when they discharge them in the course of duty.
            Yea, but a lot of those people are annoyed at the thought of the Gardaí shooting back at them and their friends. It’s not supposed to be a two-way range!
            'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
            'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
            Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
            He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
            http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

            Comment


            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
              But the Dail does not fear An Garda Siochana.
              However AGS does not fear the Dail either, nor should it.
              Was it not a case that Before the Mutiny the "Civic Guard" were "armed" and then became "unarmed" after it became An Garda Síochána. I have also wondered wither or not the Civil War and the Two Mutinies were a factor as to why both the Military Police and An Garda Síochána provided security to the Dail.
              It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
              It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
              It was a new age...It was the end of history.
              It was the year everything changed.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                I have heard this said before.
                As for the Army Mutiny of 1924, I think we can safely say there is now nobody serving that fought in the War of Independence and the Civil war. The Government shouldn't fear the Army any more.
                They are probably indoctrinated by the Civil Service

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CTU View Post
                  ... both the Military Police and An Garda Síochána provided security to the Dail.
                  I never knew that!
                  'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                  'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                  Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                  He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                  http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                  Comment


                  • No one really cares about the reserve and wont use them. Example how many are being used right now. FA. Great way to support in creasing the numbers.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      Ref the Civil War. Since it’s end, the Civil Service has treated the DF as a threat to the State
                      I suspect its a inferiority complex at the presents of a uniform. Retired officer from cork who for a short time was involved in politics told me he for a time served in Parkgate Street. The military and the civil servants tolerated one another in the building. It irritated Senior civil servants to be greeted by their first name while the officer beside them got a good morning sir.

                      I fear it's were they stick the losers who are next in line for a civil servant promotion, who gets no hassle from their minister due to the lack of public criticism of the performance of the incumbent politician.
                      Last edited by sofa; 28 May 2020, 23:13.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by sofa View Post
                        I suspect its a inferiority complex at the presents of a uniform. Retired officer from cork who for a short time was involved in politics told me he for a time served in Parkgate Street. The military and the civil servants tolerated one another in the building. It irritated Senior civil servants to be greeted by their first name while the officer beside them got a good morning sir.

                        I fear it's were they stick the losers who are next in line for a civil servant promotion, who gets no hassle from their minister due to the lack of public criticism of the performance of the incumbent politician.
                        Nobody wants defence in the civil service. It's too small and there are few promotion opportunities within the department.
                        Most come in on promotion, do the minimum required, and move elsewhere .
                        It's not that they are losers, it's that they aren't invested in the department.
                        Ironically, if it were larger, and the defence forces were larger and the DoD had a larger budget to manage, they would be better motivated.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                          I never knew that!
                          Government Buildings not the Dail

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            Government Buildings not the Dail
                            Government Buildings and Leinster House

                            https://www.dfmagazine.ie/dfmag_pdfs...2_Feb_2011.pdf (Page 14)
                            Last edited by CTU; 29 May 2020, 10:08.
                            It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                            It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                            It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                            It was the year everything changed.

                            Comment


                            • All the one complex. Government Buildings, on Merrion street, is at the back of Leinster house. It's our Downing St (Part of Whitehall), though our PM can walk from his Government office to the house of parliment without having to mix with the common folk.
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                                All the one complex. Government Buildings, on Merrion street, is at the back of Leinster house.
                                Government Buildings as we know it today only became one in the late 80s/Early 90s, while they might seem to be part of one complex for security reasons, they are still two separate buildings (even if they are connected by walkways).

                                It's our Downing St (Part of Whitehall), though our PM can walk from his Government office to the house of parliment without having to mix with the common folk.
                                So could Boris Johnson if he really wanted to, although I suspect he might be covered in dust by the time he gets to the other side.

                                It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                                It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                                It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                                It was the year everything changed.

                                Comment

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