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  1. #201
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Have a look at the findings from those groups and what was said. The climate survey especially as they could say what they liked and everyone was encouraged to participate.

    Also have a look at the ODF annual reports and see the same issues cropping up year after year.

    Pay and allowances is definitely an issue but if pay was doubled in the morning there would still be people in Accomodiation that you wouldn’t put a dog in, people getting annual reports (effecting their careers for promotion, overseas, retention etc) who they have never met, unfair procedures for selection for courses, a huge paperwork burden, etc etc

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  3. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Have a look at the findings from those groups and what was said. The climate survey especially as they could say what they liked and everyone was encouraged to participate.

    Also have a look at the ODF annual reports and see the same issues cropping up year after year.

    Pay and allowances is definitely an issue but if pay was doubled in the morning there would still be people in Accomodiation that you wouldn’t put a dog in, people getting annual reports (effecting their careers for promotion, overseas, retention etc) who they have never met, unfair procedures for selection for courses, a huge paperwork burden, etc etc
    You are on the money with your last sentence which implies that our system is open to, at very least, careless decision making and a need for stronger leadership in dealing with matters associated with living conditions , education, training opportunities , and ensuring units are fit for purpose. Pay must also be a factor as it is perceived to be insufficient especially when outside rents are higher then E 200 weekly.

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  5. #203
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    You are on the money with your last sentence which implies that our system is open to, at very least, careless decision making and a need for stronger leadership in dealing with matters associated with living conditions , education, training opportunities , and ensuring units are fit for purpose. Pay must also be a factor as it is perceived to be insufficient especially when outside rents are higher then E 200 weekly.
    It’s all in those reports

  6. #204
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    ISME are just worried that if the public sector get anything more, they might have to start paying private sector staff something close to a living wage.
    Likewise, anything involving ICTU is doomed to failure, as you cannot have a representative body that represents management and employees get a good deal for both.
    RACO are not looking to join ICTU.In fact they are actively opposing PDFORRAs associate membership as is every serving senior Officer and a good bunch of the retired ones.Lobbying TD's etc to pull the rug out from under PDFORRA.Arguing for a UK style Armed Forces Pay commission.An organisation that produces an Annual report that consistently gets ignored as it is not legally binding.Yeah.Let's get one of those.

    The party line that this is all to do with fear of the PDF going out on strike is nonsense as the Minister has been given written assurances that won't ever happen.

    All to do with losing control. Nothing more. Anyway let's wait to hear what Europe says about it.Again.
    https://pdforra.cms-omd.ie/informati...ghts-committee
    Last edited by apod; 27th May 2020 at 22:24.
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  7. #205
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    This report as usual shows how little the Government consider the Reserve.

    A report entitled
    Defence Forces: Remuneration,Recruitment and Retention
    makes no mention of the Reserve, even though it is just as part of the DF as our Permanent Colleagues ; each of the topics are just as worthy in their own right for us as the PDF .
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  9. #206
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    Just finished watching the webinar on Military air transport and one of the topics raised in the panel discussion was the absence of any defence policy of any sort here up to the first white paper, and the shambolic progress being made on the most recent white paper.
    We engage in box ticking exercises in defence without any coordinated plan. We have things, like a reserve, because everyone else has them, but put no thought into how these things should be used.
    Our overseas aid budget is larger than our defence budget. Both should work hand in hand.
    Iur state was formed by the two rival sides in the civil war becoming political parties that have remained foremost in government since, both of whom went a long way to distance themselves from anything military once they took office, and this became our de facto defence status since.
    It was refreshing to watch, and to know that some of Ireland's top academics are on the same page as most of us here with regards to defence. More so that one of the newest TDs, who may have a key role in forming the next government, is all over it.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  11. #207
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Ref the Civil War. Since it’s end, the Civil Service has treated the DF as a threat to the State

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  13. #208
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    Hard to say why. The early civil service were mostly former british civil service, and the national army acted to protect the admin functions of the free state while the anti treaty side did what it could to interfere with their work.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  14. #209
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Hard to say why. The early civil service were mostly former british civil service, and the national army acted to protect the admin functions of the free state while the anti treaty side did what it could to interfere with their work.
    “Army Mutiny” 1924 ?

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    “Army Mutiny” 1924 ?
    I was at a dinner once with a former Sec Gen of Dept Finance who, at the time, controlled all of what are now the TLAC processes. He regaled the table with the story of how he chaired a selection panel for Sec Gen Defence at which, when asked what the role of the Dept of Defence was, one of the candidates replied "to prevent the Army having enough resources to mount a coup".

    When the laughter died down he said that "the real joke was that we gave him the job".

    I knew both men and he was correct.
    “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
    ― Thucydides

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  17. #211
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    I have heard this said before.
    As for the Army Mutiny of 1924, I think we can safely say there is now nobody serving that fought in the War of Independence and the Civil war. The Government shouldn't fear the Army any more.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  18. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I have heard this said before.
    As for the Army Mutiny of 1924, I think we can safely say there is now nobody serving that fought in the War of Independence and the Civil war. The Government shouldn't fear the Army any more.
    What about the "Civic Guard Mutiny" in 1922.
    Even in this day and age some people have a fit when they see Gardai carrying firearms, let alone when they discharge them in the course of duty.
    Last edited by CTU; 28th May 2020 at 18:32.
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed!
    I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

  19. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    This report as usual shows how little the Government consider the Reserve.

    A report entitled makes no mention of the Reserve, even though it is just as part of the DF as our Permanent Colleagues ; each of the topics are just as worthy in their own right for us as the PDF .
    Was going to make a similar point, I think there are loads of things lost in the discussion of retention, and how its not simply driven by poor pay. But what seems to be entirely neglected is the concept of reserve service. There definitely has to be some acceptance that the DF and military's in general will struggle to retain personnel (even outside this current crisis). You have highly trained, committed people in often demanding jobs who may want a change in pay, family life, life goals, career progression etc, but when they leave here you simply lose them.

    A functioning reserve (both 1st line and 2nd) serves to maintain and hold key competencies and skills in reserve so you can call upon it. But that relies heavily on both a commitment to maintaining and training a reserve, but also that your personnel are leaving with a certain amount of goodwill (which certainly won't exist if you don't treat them well and they leave on bad terms).

    Its not in anyway a golden bullet, but its an important discussion that is needed as part of a multifaceted approach to retention, but completely neglected at a policy level.

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  21. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    What about the "Civic Guard Mutiny" in 1922.
    Even in this day and age some people have a fit when they see Gardai carrying firearms, let alone when they discharge them in the course of duty.
    You mean the "Kildare Civic Guard mutiny"?
    That was more a matter of policy brought over from the Unarmed DMP. First Commissioner Staines said "we will not succeed by force of arms alone, but by moral authority, and the will of the people" or words to that effect.
    They had come from a nasty period of policing enforced by the armed RIC and RIC Auxiliary force. They felt they could do better. However when the Commissioner of the day is also a sitting TD, during a civil war the ethos is going to be a bit too political for some.
    It was lipservice though, and all we had was an unarmed uniformed force. Throw a jumper over the blue shirt, and you could carry whatever artillery you were qualified to fire, and up to the mid 90s, everyone was trained to fire the pistol, and should your super be so inclined, any garda who wanted to could qualify on the Uzi too.
    AGS had to use their firearms many times over the history of the force, and there was very little in the way of wailing from the backbenches in the Dail when it happened.
    If anything, it's status as an unarmed force has been more of a burden than is obvious, as the average member has little awareness of how to act when either the target, or your colleague, is armed, with tragic results in some cases.
    But the Dail does not fear An Garda Siochana.
    However AGS does not fear the Dail either, nor should it.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  23. #215
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    What about the "Civic Guard Mutiny" in 1922.
    Even in this day and age some people have a fit when they see Gardai carrying firearms, let alone when they discharge them in the course of duty.
    Yea, but a lot of those people are annoyed at the thought of the Gardaí shooting back at them and their friends. It’s not supposed to be a two-way range!
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  25. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    But the Dail does not fear An Garda Siochana.
    However AGS does not fear the Dail either, nor should it.
    Was it not a case that Before the Mutiny the "Civic Guard" were "armed" and then became "unarmed" after it became An Garda Síochána. I have also wondered wither or not the Civil War and the Two Mutinies were a factor as to why both the Military Police and An Garda Síochána provided security to the Dail.
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed!
    I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

  26. #217
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I have heard this said before.
    As for the Army Mutiny of 1924, I think we can safely say there is now nobody serving that fought in the War of Independence and the Civil war. The Government shouldn't fear the Army any more.
    They are probably indoctrinated by the Civil Service

  27. #218
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    ... both the Military Police and An Garda Síochána provided security to the Dail.
    I never knew that!
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  28. #219
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    No one really cares about the reserve and wont use them. Example how many are being used right now. FA. Great way to support in creasing the numbers.

  29. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Ref the Civil War. Since it’s end, the Civil Service has treated the DF as a threat to the State
    I suspect its a inferiority complex at the presents of a uniform. Retired officer from cork who for a short time was involved in politics told me he for a time served in Parkgate Street. The military and the civil servants tolerated one another in the building. It irritated Senior civil servants to be greeted by their first name while the officer beside them got a good morning sir.

    I fear it's were they stick the losers who are next in line for a civil servant promotion, who gets no hassle from their minister due to the lack of public criticism of the performance of the incumbent politician.
    Last edited by sofa; 28th May 2020 at 22:13.

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  31. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    I suspect its a inferiority complex at the presents of a uniform. Retired officer from cork who for a short time was involved in politics told me he for a time served in Parkgate Street. The military and the civil servants tolerated one another in the building. It irritated Senior civil servants to be greeted by their first name while the officer beside them got a good morning sir.

    I fear it's were they stick the losers who are next in line for a civil servant promotion, who gets no hassle from their minister due to the lack of public criticism of the performance of the incumbent politician.
    Nobody wants defence in the civil service. It's too small and there are few promotion opportunities within the department.
    Most come in on promotion, do the minimum required, and move elsewhere .
    It's not that they are losers, it's that they aren't invested in the department.
    Ironically, if it were larger, and the defence forces were larger and the DoD had a larger budget to manage, they would be better motivated.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  33. #222
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    I never knew that!
    Government Buildings not the Dail

  34. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Government Buildings not the Dail
    Government Buildings and Leinster House

    https://www.dfmagazine.ie/dfmag_pdfs...2_Feb_2011.pdf (Page 14)
    Last edited by CTU; 29th May 2020 at 09:08.
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed!
    I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

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  36. #224
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    All the one complex. Government Buildings, on Merrion street, is at the back of Leinster house. It's our Downing St (Part of Whitehall), though our PM can walk from his Government office to the house of parliment without having to mix with the common folk.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  38. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    All the one complex. Government Buildings, on Merrion street, is at the back of Leinster house.
    Government Buildings as we know it today only became one in the late 80s/Early 90s, while they might seem to be part of one complex for security reasons, they are still two separate buildings (even if they are connected by walkways).

    It's our Downing St (Part of Whitehall), though our PM can walk from his Government office to the house of parliment without having to mix with the common folk.
    So could Boris Johnson if he really wanted to, although I suspect he might be covered in dust by the time he gets to the other side.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mili...s_under_London
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed!
    I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

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