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  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I have wondered about the cost of putting a full Bde on the ground annually to trial the amount of ground needed to defend a particular type of terrain. It could have a front as narrow as 4km against a definite en axis or up to 30km initially for an oberservational front. I've only ever done TWET's and think such an exercise with mechanised/motorised units would highlight the boxes that need ticking and filling. It would also steer future budget targets for Air Defence, Armour, artillery,field engineering, and field medical. We all know the need, let us see can we do it.
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Initially positioning and to establish if things join up and communicate up and down. Invite EU umpiring with a wash-up report and marks out of 10. Useful timing data would be gleaned and the AR would get an airing.
    There is Bn Gp exercises most years, I think there may have been a Bde level ex maybe 15 years ago.

    NATO assess an individual unit once annually under OCC.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
      The first problem would be that we would find we do not have enough transport to bring a full Bde to a single training area. Also for a effective exercise there would need to be a Blue/Red teaming or would it just be a positioning exercise?
      What would happen in real-world mobilisation? Bus Eireann and CIE would be pressed into service presumably. So use them for exercise. Adapt, improvise, overcome!
      'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
      'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
      Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
      He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
      http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
        What would happen in real-world mobilisation? Bus Eireann and CIE would be pressed into service presumably. So use them for exercise. Adapt, improvise, overcome!
        So why stop there why not get the Taxis to drive the troops to the front?
        We are talking about a military exercise and a rich nation such as Ireland should be able to provide transport for its troops.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
          So why stop there why not get the Taxis to drive the troops to the front?
          We are talking about a military exercise and a rich nation such as Ireland should be able to provide transport for its troops.
          France did it at Marne.....
          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
            Initially positioning and to establish if things join up and communicate up and down. Invite EU umpiring with a wash-up report and marks out of 10. Useful timing data would be gleaned and the AR would get an airing.
            What would be the scenario for a Bde exercise?
            If it was an invading opponent then the only thing to do is see how fast we could make white flags as any nation that has the capability to lift a sufficient military force would defeat us in a conventional fight within a few hours.

            The second could be going to support another non-NATO EU nation, but this would be way out of scope for the moment at least.

            Then the only real scenario would be one of the collapse of civil authority north of the border (east for those in Donegal). If and it will hopefully remain a big if the government in London does manage to break-up the UK and thus remove the BA from Northern Ireland then there could be a scenario in which the civil authority loses power. It might not be as probable as some thought in the 1970's but could still happen. We are not talking about moving troops into NI but securing the border to ensure that any issues do not spill over.

            But even to do such an exercise especially with EU monitors would cause major outcries in NI and the UK. And that is despite the fact that the exercise would be to see if we could recreate the deployment of troops we had some 30 years ago when we had the 3 Bde,

            So at present anything about that of a Bn seems excessive; in most scenarios that coming from either the UN or EU the upper limit would be a Bn. It would be better to see how we could deploy to a new region quickly, how soon can the engineers get a new base up and running, how can the logistics put in secure supply lines, how soon we can start doing joint-ops with other forces etc.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
              France did it at Marne.....
              Exactly!

              1914 and with every available taxi they only managed to transport less than 3% of the French troops involved in the battle. Plus I would hate to see the taxi bill for 3 solders plus kit!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                Exactly!

                1914 and with every available taxi they only managed to transport less than 3% of the French troops involved in the battle. Plus I would hate to see the taxi bill for 3 solders plus kit!
                I'm surprised they didn't all go via Toulon.
                A brigade exercise of any sort is impossible in a 2 brigade army. When we had 3 brigades it took the assets of one brigade to achieve a Batallion plus level exercise. We also lack an appropriate space to carry out an exercise at this scale. The Corps Concentrations were a start, but they were just that. Corps specific, with attachments.
                I always thought Bere Island was under Utilised as an exercise location. 10K long, 3 K wide, majority of its population work on the mainland, and over the years they have become accustomed to the DF firing blanks in their back field (as well as a proper Range available at one end).
                With early interaction and discussion with locals, the entire Island could accomodate most facets of a large scale ex.
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                  I'm surprised they didn't all go via Toulon.
                  You know taxi drivers too well; "I know a short cut!!!", "trust me it is faster this way"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                    What would be the scenario for a Bde exercise?
                    If it was an invading opponent then the only thing to do is see how fast we could make white flags as any nation that has the capability to lift a sufficient military force would defeat us in a conventional fight within a few hours.

                    The second could be going to support another non-NATO EU nation, but this would be way out of scope for the moment at least.

                    Then the only real scenario would be one of the collapse of civil authority north of the border (east for those in Donegal). If and it will hopefully remain a big if the government in London does manage to break-up the UK and thus remove the BA from Northern Ireland then there could be a scenario in which the civil authority loses power. It might not be as probable as some thought in the 1970's but could still happen. We are not talking about moving troops into NI but securing the border to ensure that any issues do not spill over.

                    But even to do such an exercise especially with EU monitors would cause major outcries in NI and the UK. And that is despite the fact that the exercise would be to see if we could recreate the deployment of troops we had some 30 years ago when we had the 3 Bde,

                    So at present anything about that of a Bn seems excessive; in most scenarios that coming from either the UN or EU the upper limit would be a Bn. It would be better to see how we could deploy to a new region quickly, how soon can the engineers get a new base up and running, how can the logistics put in secure supply lines, how soon we can start doing joint-ops with other forces etc.
                    Overall what you say is credible but if we establish a Brigade and then double it to Two Brigades we must train and manoeuvre even at Bde minus level for crucial eventualities. If it was to confront invasion forces then we must regret killing off our coastal observation and Coast Defence Artillery. The free observation provided by the Lighthouses is no more as they operate remotely from the Control Center in Dun Laoghaire. We are continually shedding difficult bits instead of replacing CDA with coastal radar and mobile missile units. We cannot continue to ignore our Island status and it's strategic position on the Atlantic.
                    If our neighbours can have a Bde ready to go then we should be able to manage a heavy mech batt plus supports from each Bde. It would be interesting to see how the SHANNON effects things. The crossing points North of Limerick are Portumna, Banagher, Shannon Bridge with fortifications ( Cafe), Athlone with Garrison, and Lanesborough. Cross river troop transport comes to mind , plus demolition of some. My son was BSM of the 16th Air Assault BDE and they did a full exercise before deploying to Afghanistan.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                      Overall what you say is credible but if we establish a Brigade and then double it to Two Brigades we must train and manoeuvre even at Bde minus level for crucial eventualities. If it was to confront invasion forces then we must regret killing off our coastal observation and Coast Defence Artillery. The free observation provided by the Lighthouses is no more as they operate remotely from the Control Center in Dun Laoghaire. We are continually shedding difficult bits instead of replacing CDA with coastal radar and mobile missile units. We cannot continue to ignore our Island status and it's strategic position on the Atlantic.
                      True, as fixed gun CA became no longer viable many nations moved to mobile missile systems and just recently the USMC announced they were getting back into the game. If we looks at the MV Alta, the fact that it was able to get washed up on the cliffs at Ballycotton should have sent alarm bells ringing. It was not a stealth boat or narco sub sneaking into our waters but a 80m ships drifting. With a functioning CA system it would have been picked up, maybe they would have even got to practice on it (naturally once we knew there was no-one onboard).

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                        If our neighbours can have a Bde ready to go then we should be able to manage a heavy mech batt plus supports from each Bde. It would be interesting to see how the SHANNON effects things. The crossing points North of Limerick are Portumna, Banagher, Shannon Bridge with fortifications ( Cafe), Athlone with Garrison, and Lanesborough. Cross river troop transport comes to mind , plus demolition of some. My son was BSM of the 16th Air Assault BDE and they did a full exercise before deploying to Afghanistan.
                        There are two crossings before Portumna; but the point is valid for many of river systems. Our small island is cut by many rivers and taking out a bridge or two can be a major tactical advantage. I would hope that the Engineers have plans of all major crossings and have worked out how best to blow them. The more modern one should be relatively easily especially the rail one but some of the older stone bridges could cause a bit more of an issue.

                        On the other side of the coin, if we are denied a crossing how do we get across? We have some grand MOWAGs but their ability to do amphibious crossings is not available. This is not just an issue with our 8x8 boxes but with many. Building a bridge under fire is no easy thing and once you start you opponent has a good idea of where to hit you.

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                        • You would be quickly held up trying to get a convoy over either Killaloe-Ballina or Montpelier-O'BriensBridge given their engineering. They are an asset to a defending force only. The question to ask at that stage though is, would Ardnacrusha be left intact? An attacking force would surely consider it a priority target, turning the Canal into one deep trench to be dealt with, as soon as you have the Above bridges secure.
                          Landing a large defending force from the sea must surely be considered a priority, though if you hold west of the shannon, and nothing else, what do you really hold? Same holds true for both defending or attacking forces.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                          Comment


                          • The obvious, and first questions, are 'is there a Bde level combat/operating doctrine?', and then 'should there be?'

                            The territorial defence scenario doesn't, to me, look like a runner - simply that anyone with the logistics capacity to put a Bn sized force on Irish territory also has the combat power to reduce the entire Irish DF, let alone a Bde sized formation, to scrap metal in less time than it takes to go over a speed bump at 40kph.

                            Waste of time. You may as well throw snowballs at the sun in order to reduce global warming.

                            Where a Bde level doctrine would be useful/viable is in overseas PK/PE operations - and, for the unimaginative, that doesn't mean an Irish Bde, it means an Irish Bde HQ and a significant force contribution, say a Bn plus support elements. Develop that, practice that, and then you can use it with other EU/UN contributing states can slot into that formation

                            Don't develop it, or practice it, and you won't be able to use it - no other contributors are going to put their units in the hands of a lead nation that simply doesn't practice operations at that level.

                            It's also a useful way of getting funding - you stage a Bde level exercise with the stated intention of working up to lead an EU operation at Bde level, you embed politicians and CS (diplomats and those working in the EU diplomatic service) in it, and then watch the horror spread across their faces when it becomes apparent that you don't have the mobility to sustain one BN on operations within your own training area, let alone act as a lead nation within an EU Bde.

                            Helicopters come much quicker when politicians and senior CS have to drive around in a minibus pretending to be a helicopter. Make them go 'Wop Wop Wop Wop for 20 minutes - they'll get bored of it pretty quickly and ask you how much a CH-47 is...

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                            • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                              The obvious, and first questions, are 'is there a Bde level combat/operating doctrine?', and then 'should there be?'
                              Suffice to say - there is

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                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                Suffice to say - there is
                                And how regularly is it practiced?

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