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Air corps pilots to be trained by the RAAF in Australia.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ropebag View Post
    I think their might be some dispute over whether that's a bad result....

    If, instead of the current 'whole training pipeline' model, AC front and rear crew were sent off to friendly air arms to be trained, and then used by that friendly air arm for a years free labour, with the crews then coming back to airlift and MPA/ISR aircraft instead of PC-9M's, that would, imv, not be a retrograde step...
    That presumes an integrated, whole of service, training and development model. What , in recent experience, leads you to believe that the Department (even less DPER) understands or believes in such a model. The only reason this is being contemplated is because a) it's free and b) it's a "good news" story to keep the masses entertained. Oh and c) - it's FREE !
    “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
    ― Thucydides

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Anzac View Post
      Unless they are Australian citizens or from the UK&NI, Canada, NZ or the US with military experience that wont happen.
      Billy Hedderman who released a book last year transferred from the Irish Army to the Australian Army. Not an Australian citizen either but surely same deal with RAAF?

      He was a ARW officer to be fair.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ropebag View Post
        I think their might be some dispute over whether that's a bad result....

        If, instead of the current 'whole training pipeline' model, AC front and rear crew were sent off to friendly air arms to be trained, and then used by that friendly air arm for a years free labour, with the crews then coming back to airlift and MPA/ISR aircraft instead of PC-9M's, that would, imv, not be a retrograde step...
        The AC doesn’t have enough pilots to fly the required missions of the operational aircraft & mission as is

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        • #19
          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          The AC doesn’t have enough pilots to fly the required missions of the operational aircraft & mission as is
          If the system is already broken, it seems somewhat odd to be determined to preserve it.

          You need something new, whether that's the system, the offer - which is more than just the money - or both. But you need to change what you're doing, because it's not working.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DeV View Post
            The AC doesn’t have enough pilots to fly the required missions of the operational aircraft & mission as is
            Just to clarify a few things for those playing guessing games.

            This move has been in the works for months now, it is only becoming public knowledge due to the Taoiseachs' speech.

            The move has absolutely nothing to do with the C-27. The AC won't be getting any of them. It isn't even remotely a possibility.

            This 'Pilot training' is not abinitio training. Already qualified pilots will be participating.

            Everything EU Fighter stated is correct.

            @ Dev, you are making a lot of statements about things you know absolutely nothing about. Guessing is fine but stating things as fact is completely horse shit. Please stop.
            Last edited by Chuck; 26 July 2019, 19:30.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Chuck View Post
              Just to clarify a few things for those playing guessing games.

              This move has been in the works for months now, it is only becoming public knowledge due to the Taoiseachs' speech.

              The move has absolutely nothing to do with the C-27. The AC won't be getting any of them. It isn't even remotely a possibility.

              This 'Pilot training' is not abinitio training. Already qualified pilots will be participating.

              Everything EU Fighter stated is correct.

              @ Dev, you are making a lot of statements about things you know absolutely nothing about. Guessing is fine but stating things as fact is completely horse shit. Please stop.
              Obviously Government approval would be one of the final steps as the plan needs to set up first to get Government approval.

              It wasn’t me that first suggested that it could be to do with the C27 and you’ll notice from my post it starts “I wonder...”. I actually missed EUfighter’s post. And it is kind of strange considering the C27 probably would qualify for the CASA replacement.

              Nor did I suggest that these were cadets going for abininto training.


              Here’s a few facts from the article:
              - there should be 107 pilots in the AC
              - there is currently <80
              - a lot of AC experienced pilots have been lost by the AC in the last 2 years
              - we are sending away 2 of those to Australia for a significant period of time


              It is a positive step but there is a lot of places closer to home where it could be done
              Last edited by DeV; 26 July 2019, 19:31.

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              • #22
                Dev, you stated the following:

                Originally posted by DeV View Post
                The AC doesn’t have enough pilots to fly the required missions of the operational aircraft & mission as is
                Please outline which aircraft and missions are not being completed as a result of a lack of pilots.

                All I can think that you are referring to is the standing down of the standby air ambulance aircraft. You'll see in many articles that this was based on a 'staffing constraints'. You can have as many pilots and techs as you want but you can't launch an aircraft without ATC (GASU being the exception in this instance). 24/7 ATC ceased around the same time as the aforementioned standby roster.

                If you can think of others, please let me know because I'd love to hear them and address them.

                Again - your assertion that they could have been sent somewhere closer to Ireland is nothing but conjecture and that sort of Ill informed comment is more suited to the journal or twitter. You don't know what avenues were explored. You are just jumping to conclusions because you've only just learned about it.

                The AC routinely have pilots on overseas missions doing non air roles. Between form up, overseas deployment, post mission leave and the subsequent reacquisition of ratings etc that could easily last 12 months. What's more beneficial to the AC? An overseas mission or spending 1-2 years with a credible air force learning and developing its people.

                If you happen to know of another nation closer to home that were willing to provide access to their fleet and cover the costs of type ratings etc, I suggest you let the AC and DoD know.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Chuck View Post
                  Dev, you stated the following:



                  Please outline which aircraft and missions are not being completed as a result of a lack of pilots.

                  All I can think that you are referring to is the standing down of the standby air ambulance aircraft. You'll see in many articles that this was based on a 'staffing constraints'. You can have as many pilots and techs as you want but you can't launch an aircraft without ATC (GASU being the exception in this instance). 24/7 ATC ceased around the same time as the aforementioned standby roster.

                  If you can think of others, please let me know because I'd love to hear them and address them.

                  Again - your assertion that they could have been sent somewhere closer to Ireland is nothing but conjecture and that sort of Ill informed comment is more suited to the journal or twitter. You don't know what avenues were explored. You are just jumping to conclusions because you've only just learned about it.

                  The AC routinely have pilots on overseas missions doing non air roles. Between form up, overseas deployment, post mission leave and the subsequent reacquisition of ratings etc that could easily last 12 months. What's more beneficial to the AC? An overseas mission or spending 1-2 years with a credible air force learning and developing its people.

                  If you happen to know of another nation closer to home that were willing to provide access to their fleet and cover the costs of type ratings etc, I suggest you let the AC and DoD know.
                  So there is no pilot shortage in the AC ?

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                  • #24
                    So, are you saying that literally NO air arm between here and Australia would conduct a service swap / exchange for two pilots? Not even little ol' Malta, with whom we have close connections? Or the French? Or the Swedish? Two countries from which we have bought many weapons and conducted UN ops with? Not even a tour of Mali with the French!!?? All the way to 'Stroilya, to fly King Airs??!! Why only two? Kind of pointless to send only two. All it takes is a bad pint in King's Cross and you're down 50% of the available strength. You'd think even the Swiss would offer a couple of slots in their world-class air force, given the steady business we have given their prime manufacturer. Or even Spain, considering how many euros we have given Casa. I don't know. Maybe the Minister is scrabbling around, looking for a good news story...

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      So there is no pilot shortage in the AC ?
                      Why don't you answer my question first. Then I'll answer yours.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                        So, are you saying that literally NO air arm between here and Australia would conduct a service swap / exchange for two pilots? Not even little ol' Malta, with whom we have close connections? Or the French? Or the Swedish? Two countries from which we have bought many weapons and conducted UN ops with? Not even a tour of Mali with the French!!?? All the way to 'Stroilya, to fly King Airs??!! Why only two? Kind of pointless to send only two. All it takes is a bad pint in King's Cross and you're down 50% of the available strength. You'd think even the Swiss would offer a couple of slots in their world-class air force, given the steady business we have given their prime manufacturer. Or even Spain, considering how many euros we have given Casa. I don't know. Maybe the Minister is scrabbling around, looking for a good news story...
                        No, I am not saying that. I am saying that Dev once again claimed that, and I quote, "there is a lot of places closer to home where it could be done". Which is nothing more than hyperbole unless it can be actually proven.

                        For all you, Dev or I know there may well have been a shortlist of options and the RAAF were the ones that ticked the most boxes.

                        I personally don't get the faux outrage over it being in Australia. Sure it would be great to hop over to the UK or mainland europe to do it, but if it can't be done that way then so be it. So long as all stakeholders are happy with what they get from the agreement does it really matter?

                        It seems you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

                        Would you have the same reservations if they decided to send a few techs over aswell?

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                        • #27
                          I think this is a great initiative, although I have a suspicion that the fact that it’s free made it very attractive to the civil side of DOD. I’m sure there were options closer to home, but at a significant cost.

                          The question though is how many experienced pilots will have left before these two guys get back, surely a more robust and sustainable plan needs to be put in place...

                          IMHO the chronic under funding of the AC by successive government going back decades means that there is no easy solution, there is a shortage of missions and airframes particularly on the fixed wing side. You can’t have missions without aircraft and you can’t have aircraft without missions.

                          Maybe time to take all the toys out and decide what are going to be the roles of the AC for the next 20 years

                          This is going to take time to fix but more importantly money, I haven’t heard any mention of significant increased spending!

                          IF they want a credible military air component they must first admit its expensive and resource it accordingly

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                            Billy Hedderman who released a book last year transferred from the Irish Army to the Australian Army. Not an Australian citizen either but surely same deal with RAAF?

                            He was a ARW officer to be fair.
                            In exceptional circumstances, if a position cannot be filled by an Australian or one with FEVY's citizenship requirement may be waived and applications may be accepted from Permanent residents with prior relevant military experience who can prove they have applied for citizenship. An ex ARW officer would be a perfect example of that or a Cat A fast jet pilot with QWI or QFI credentials. The bar is pretty high.

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                            • #29
                              My understanding is that Hedderman joined as a regular infantry officer and had ambitions to complete the ADF SOF course prior to his injury. He received citizenship some time after initially joining.

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                              • #30
                                To extrapolate the thinking, I think there is a serious case to be made for cadres from all the specialist disciplines in the AC to be sent away for professional training and development and to acquire experience from a suitable military air arm.

                                I would argue that this should start now and continue for the foreseeable future as a way to bridge the current experience gap. Maybe cancel traditional overseas tours for the next few years and focus on building core skills.

                                The RAAF is a super organization and has huge capability’s in all aspects of military aviation, maybe leaning on them and others is the only way forward.

                                It all comes down to Money and political will

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