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Air corps pilots to be trained by the RAAF in Australia.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
    To extrapolate the thinking, I think there is a serious case to be made for cadres from all the specialist disciplines in the AC to be sent away for professional training and development and to acquire experience from a suitable military air arm.

    I would argue that this should start now and continue for the foreseeable future as a way to bridge the current experience gap. Maybe cancel traditional overseas tours for the next few years and focus on building core skills.

    The RAAF is a super organization and has huge capability’s in all aspects of military aviation, maybe leaning on them and others is the only way forward.

    It all comes down to Money and political will
    Fully agree. If there is scope to do exchanges abroad where it is mutually beneficial, then its a no brainer.

    Of course it will not suit every individual and would require careful management. Both pilots will likely be in contract so there is no ability to abscond as has been suggested here or elsewhere because they got used to the sunshine. Some form of gauranteed service return would be needed in return otherwise the DF gets nothing in return.

    I bet there would be a pretty high uptake from specialists, DF wide, to up sticks and move abroad for a year or two.

    The reservations in this instance are I expect because:

    1. Its AC Personnel
    2. They are officers

    The usual stuff.

    Comment


    • #32
      Why just officers surely all ranks and specialty’s, huge scope for SARO’s, loadmasters, atc, technicians, operations staff etc

      The Crux of the problem may be is there enough in the AC of a challenging and interesting nature that would mean guys would want to come back and make a career of it.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
        Why just officers surely all ranks and specialty’s, huge scope for SARO’s, loadmasters, atc, technicians, operations staff etc

        The Crux of the problem may be is there enough in the AC of a challenging and interesting nature that would mean guys would want to come back and make a career of it.
        Absolutely it should be an option for all ranks of specialist trades. I thought that was inferred from my post but perhaps I should have been clearer.

        The reality is, pilots in contract have no choice. Have you heard of a pilot in contract purchasing their discharge, because I haven't.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Chuck View Post
          pilots in contract have no choice. Have you heard of a pilot in contract purchasing their discharge, because I haven't.
          No, it is technically possible but the amount is at the discretion of the minister and there is no amortization

          Comment


          • #35
            Correct. The fear of the unknown. Ask the question and you may aswell hang up your boots.

            Comment


            • #36
              Why the hang-up about Australia being a long way away - anybody there could be back in 48 hours tops, and if they were any closer, what would be the advantage? It’s not like they would be called back from Italy or Switzerland to cover sick leave, is it?
              'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
              'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
              Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
              He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
              http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

              Comment


              • #37
                The alleged pilot shortage in the Don, is, as always, selective. The Don may be short of, say, Casa Captains or Learjet Captains but it may not be short of PC-9 instructors or 135 Captains. If a pilot is engaged in ground duties, at home or abroad, he is, by default, unavailable but that is, in itself, an organisational self-inflicted wound, as the organisation insists that he cannot be promoted unless he fulfils a UN deployment, so he is out of the frame for at least a year. Unlike a civvy airline, a Don pilot cannot simply ramp up the hours and take his turn at a Command slot, he has to stick by the rules of Military promotion. When it comes to pilot numbers versus airframes, you are not talking like for like. All of the pilots (and non-pilots, in fairness) watch all of the available slots all of the time and thou shalt not promote or otherwise elevate a junior above a senior, lest a fellow pilot takes thee to the High Court and smites thee down. This applies to all of the DF, across all ranks and trades. When I was a mere underling of a Corporal, I had a slot in a subunit of Engineering Wing (as it was then, sensibly, known) and that was it. It was predetermined before I even entered my NCOs course. I could not consider going sideways to Heli Flight or BFTS, as those slots were already sold off. That's how it worked. Skills and ability had little or nothing to do with it. The political jousting and infighting for prime pilots slots is often quite a sight to behold, given that it is even more rigidly controlled than the seniority in legacy airlines. It was quite an eye-opener, to see it in action.

                Comment


                • #38
                  @GTTC, as with everything context is key. I think it might be about time that people were made aware that when you post, you refer to a quite a short period of service in Baldonnel that ended almost 20 years ago if I am correct based on some previous posts. I am sure you have some former colleagues which are still in but as always there is two sides to everything and you are quite obviously being fed one side and one side only.

                  Your post is mostly fallacy if I am to be blunt about it. Of course all personnel (officers and enlisted) watch for vacancies and try and anticipate moves which will benefit them the most. This is the same in almost every public or private industry in existance.

                  Have you any evidence whatsoever of any officer taking another officer (or the minister) to court because they werent promoted or 'given a slot'? There was one case recently concerning a former army engineer who took a case but aside from that I don't know of any other. That was to do with not being included in a promotion competition than anything else.

                  Plenty of pilots have not been selected for command and there has been many instances or 'Junior' officers getting command of aircraft ahead of those senior to them based on suitability and competence. The same can be said of officers picked to become instructors. Seniority is not a deciding factor. Despite the picture you are trying to paint.

                  While I cannot completely refute all that you say, due to the fact that it was based on experience accrued almost two decades ago, you need to accept that the organization has changed substantially, not just the Air Corps but the wider DF.

                  Your posts are sometimes disingenuous and mostly serve no other purpose than to influence others who have no direct exposure to the organisation.

                  Maybe the next time you decide to call into Baldonnel, you take the time to talk to people (other than techs) and perhaps you will notice a difference.

                  For the record, many of your posts seem to shed a negative light on the officer body, regardless of corps. I don't know your individual circumstances but the consistent mud slinging, without any rebuttal, is getting quite tiresome. And I am not quite sure what you hope to achieve by it.

                  Also - your point about officers engaged in ground duties being 'unavailable' is complete bollox. There have been countless instances of AC pilot officers who have been detached to various areas such as the MilCol, J3/5, DFHQ, etc who are doing a full time external appointment but who still maintain a presence to ensure maintenance of rosters and currency. This is in addition to all of other officers who have full time ground appointments in Bal who still fly on a regular basis. Its been a long time since you looked at CS4 I bet. care to guess how many full time ground appointments are allocated to the pilot stream?
                  Last edited by Chuck; 27 July 2019, 02:24.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Chuck View Post
                    My understanding is that Hedderman joined as a regular infantry officer and had ambitions to complete the ADF SOF course prior to his injury. He received citizenship some time after initially joining.
                    And he joined as an infantry captain

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Chuck View Post
                      No, I am not saying that. I am saying that Dev once again claimed that, and I quote, "there is a lot of places closer to home where it could be done". Which is nothing more than hyperbole unless it can be actually proven.

                      For all you, Dev or I know there may well have been a shortlist of options and the RAAF were the ones that ticked the most boxes.

                      I personally don't get the faux outrage over it being in Australia. Sure it would be great to hop over to the UK or mainland europe to do it, but if it can't be done that way then so be it. So long as all stakeholders are happy with what they get from the agreement does it really matter?

                      It seems you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

                      Would you have the same reservations if they decided to send a few techs over aswell?
                      Where numbers are low yes you are damned if you are damned if don’t.

                      I’m not outraged I’m surprised ..... and we all know that the RAAF would hope to gain 2 new pilots permanently.... you’d assume this would be accompanied so the families might decide to stay.

                      It is a positive step but I have reservations due to the duration, cost (travel, Accomodiation, subsistence? Etc) and risk of loosing those pilots permanently

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I think the cost stuff is just galaxy - housing costs in Australia are no more, and often a lot less, than in Dublin, or the UK, or France, or Switzerland, or Sweden. If the pilots (and thier families?) We're at RAF Valley or Waddington, or Lossiemouth, they'd be back and forth every other weekend, but in Australia, because it's such a long way, they might well only return once a year.

                        I don't know if you've had the pleasure of taking two children on a 24 hour flight, but it's not much fun...

                        Personally I'd think that doing an 18 month/2 year exchange tour in somewhere like Australia, Canada, the US, France or Sweden would be a huge recruiting draw for the type of people the AC (and wider DF) needs to recruit, rather than stay at home types who want to live on the same street as their mum's till they die...

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Chuck, any idea what new skill sets are envisaged which can be transferred back home? I assume there is some such plan behind it,

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            ..... and we all know that the RAAF would hope to gain 2 new pilots permanently....
                            The RAAF regularly provide specialist training to a number of foreign military forces from around the Asia Pacific and Middle East. They do not and cannot under Australian immigration law actively recruit from these International defence cooperation programmes.

                            The exceptional circumstances of Mr Hedderman can be distinguished because I understand he choose to self migrate to Australia and join the ADF and the only reason he got accepted in Australian service was that he was; 1) on a permanent residency visa; 2) had an application in the pipeline for citizenship; and 3) most significantly and the bit which relates to exceptional circumstances - he had previously been an officer of an elite military unit whom he could bring into the ADF his specialist skills, perspectives and experience once he had achieved citizenship, had satisfied stringent ASIO security vetting, into what was an obviously going to eventually benefit the ADF in his career in the Australian special forces community.

                            The Air Corps will send out two of their own, whom will gain invaluable training with what is regarded as one of the most professional, well resourced and capable air forces in the world, whom will return to Ireland no doubt highly motivated to impart their skills and experience for the benefit of the AC. I think this is an excellent, forward thinking move of the AC to do this. As I have said before, I cannot think of a better air force for the AC to develop this training relationship with.

                            The Australians are not doing this as a some kind of cunning recruitment scam to steel the best of others, but because they actually holdfast to the core principle of building collective security amongst the international community through defence cooperation and their foreign assistance programmes is their vehicle to build this capacity.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                              The RAAF regularly provide specialist training to a number of foreign military forces from around the Asia Pacific and Middle East. They do not and cannot under Australian immigration law actively recruit from these International defence cooperation programmes.

                              The exceptional circumstances of Mr Hedderman can be distinguished because I understand he choose to self migrate to Australia and join the ADF and the only reason he got accepted in Australian service was that he was; 1) on a permanent residency visa; 2) had an application in the pipeline for citizenship; and 3) most significantly and the bit which relates to exceptional circumstances - he had previously been an officer of an elite military unit whom he could bring into the ADF his specialist skills, perspectives and experience once he had achieved citizenship, had satisfied stringent ASIO security vetting, into what was an obviously going to eventually benefit the ADF in his career in the Australian special forces community.

                              The Air Corps will send out two of their own, whom will gain invaluable training with what is regarded as one of the most professional, well resourced and capable air forces in the world, whom will return to Ireland no doubt highly motivated to impart their skills and experience for the benefit of the AC. I think this is an excellent, forward thinking move of the AC to do this. As I have said before, I cannot think of a better air force for the AC to develop this training relationship with.

                              The Australians are not doing this as a some kind of cunning recruitment scam to steel the best of others, but because they actually holdfast to the core principle of building collective security amongst the international community through defence cooperation and their foreign assistance programmes is their vehicle to build this capacity.
                              Lets hope so

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                Where numbers are low yes you are damned if you are damned if don’t.

                                I’m not outraged I’m surprised ..... and we all know that the RAAF would hope to gain 2 new pilots permanently.... you’d assume this would be accompanied so the families might decide to stay.

                                It is a positive step but I have reservations due to the duration, cost (travel, Accomodiation, subsistence? Etc) and risk of loosing those pilots permanently
                                As I have already explained, the AC won't be sending pilots who are out of contract because they can leave at any time unless some form of an undertaking is received prior. There is essentially zero risk of losing these pilots and they will return.

                                I'd appreciate Dev if you could answer the question that I directed to you. You made a statement and I'd appreciate if you could clarify it. If you aren't willing to clarify it I think it would be fair to withdraw it.

                                Originally posted by Tempest View Post
                                Chuck, any idea what new skill sets are envisaged which can be transferred back home? I assume there is some such plan behind it,
                                The loss of experience has been well publicised in the media. It cannot be replaced overnight and there isnt much scope to increase hours into guys due to the lack of airframes and servicability.

                                What you could potentially have with this arrangement is pilots returning with 7/800 hours after two years. The same amount of hours could take 4-5 years to achieve in the AC if you are looking at averages. If suitable these pilots could then be looking at command a lot sooner. That's my own thoughts on it.

                                Air Arms have always generally have a much lower hours output per pilot due to the nature of being a military officer in addition. If you are looking to replace a aircraft captain with 2000hours it could take you 10-12 years for a replacement to build up that time. On the surface at least this looks like it will address this.

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