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  • #16
    Originally posted by Laners View Post
    Spoken like a politician deflecting the topic another direction . Maybe open a thread on Naval Weapons and their usefulness .
    Haha! Laners - I'm saying they're armed for the same reason the OPV's are armed: it's a contingency and they are not expected to be used against Eurofighters anymore than an OPV is expected to survive against an Astute class sub.

    A PC-9 could lob rockets into a ship 50NM off the coast and with machine gun pods it could give a Cessna pilot who has ignored an exclusion area a particularly bad day. That's not so easy with a Grob.

    Similarly the 76mm on the OPV's could give any lesser equipped ship that was acting the bollocks a very bad day. That's wouldn't be so easy for a trawler painted grey.

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    • #17
      The point of PC-9s is that they are modern, well-equipped trainers to qualify the pilot on electronic instruments / avionics and the operation of a turbine engine, so that when he or she goes on to the Casa, the incoming PC-12 or any of the helicopters, the use and operation of the aforementioned technology will be familiar to them. Also, the entire fleet is now using one fuel, Jet A-1, and one oil, turbine oil, instead of two. As for aerial manouvering, military pilots are taught aerobatics and combat manouvering and air firing, because it's part of the job description and maybe, some day, they may go overseas and they would have to be able to manouver and fire. The Govt only allows light guns and light rockets because they are cheap, easy to use and they won't cough up for the kind of guided munitions (and associated guidance avionics) that the PC-9 can carry and fire. As for being a source of pilots for Irish airlines, that's dead and gone, because the airlines tend to recruit and train their own or recruit type qualified pilots and all the Irish airlines cycle thru more pilots than the Air Corps can generate. Also, airline pilots don't use NVGs, whereas they are quite common to military air arms and police air arms. As for the 76mm on the NS vessels, it's as good a contemporary weapon as you'll get, across any of the European navies that our lot would engage with.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Laners View Post
        So what sort of scenario could we expect to see our PC-9 's , using their weapons in anger , hardly here at home . And if it was to be such then they are most likely to never get off the ground and be wiped out early . Of course we could hope that any potential attacker will be equipped with aircraft similar to our own just to keep things fair .
        They provided during the British Royal vist a air defence around areas that some provo splitter gobshit could have entered with a highjacked light aircraft.

        The ground attack role could also come in handy if the anti treaty lads ever fancied their chances again.
        Last edited by sofa; 11 November 2019, 23:06.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
          The point of PC-9s is that they are modern, well-equipped trainers to qualify the pilot on electronic instruments / avionics and the operation of a turbine engine, so that when he or she goes on to the Casa, the incoming PC-12 or any of the helicopters, the use and operation of the aforementioned technology will be familiar to them. Also, the entire fleet is now using one fuel, Jet A-1, and one oil, turbine oil, instead of two. As for aerial manouvering, military pilots are taught aerobatics and combat manouvering and air firing, because it's part of the job description and maybe, some day, they may go overseas and they would have to be able to manouver and fire. The Govt only allows light guns and light rockets because they are cheap, easy to use and they won't cough up for the kind of guided munitions (and associated guidance avionics) that the PC-9 can carry and fire. As for being a source of pilots for Irish airlines, that's dead and gone, because the airlines tend to recruit and train their own or recruit type qualified pilots and all the Irish airlines cycle thru more pilots than the Air Corps can generate. Also, airline pilots don't use NVGs, whereas they are quite common to military air arms and police air arms. As for the 76mm on the NS vessels, it's as good a contemporary weapon as you'll get, across any of the European navies that our lot would engage with.
          Agree with all you say regarding the PC-9M.

          Your comments regarding AC pilots exiting for the airlines, particularly the Irish two, are way off the mark.

          They both account for 90+% of non age grounds related retirements over the past 3-4 years.

          They may not 'generate' enough but when you lose 5-10 pilots from a pool of circa 60-70 (strength) over a12-18 month period, that represents a huge loss.

          Throw in the IAA and the AAIU and you'll find that AC pilots are generally in high demand. Any pilot who has 12 + years commissioned service complete is eligible to leave.

          Throw in the fact that anyone post 2004 is now on the lesser pension system and you'll find pilots will make the jump far sooner because the choice is now 12 and leave for other pastures or stay for 30 for some semblance of a pension.

          Although there is now a new third option of leaving, enjoy the fruitful economic growth in the private sector and then apply to rejoin.

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          • #20
            My point about the airlines and AC pilots is that the Irish airlines are not dependent on them as a source (the sheer volume of non-Irish pilots in EI and FR is a case in point) and that the notion that the AC is a pure training ground for the airlines is wrong. Ex air corps pilots of my acquaintance have joined the usual suspects in Ireland and have also joined the less traditional flight jobs like Netjets / Agusta (Leonardo) / private business jets / private business helicopters and outfits like Bristows / CHC and the majors in the Middle East and further afield. A few more have gone into leasing, a thing that was essentially unknown 20 years ago but is commonplace now. I can also think of a few more that operate in Canada, the US and Africa in bush country operations / pipeline support/ferrying and so on. Personally, I think the attraction of a full time long service military career for a pilot in the Corps has faded; the Army and NS can't keep people of all scales and ranks for love nor money. The pension abatement thing hasn't helped, either. Staying in is a hard one to call, really.

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            • #21
              At least the fougas, armed with twin nose mounted machine guns, were able to escort Pope jp2's B747 into Dublin, long long ago
              legend has it the 747 slowed down!

              That's wouldn't be so easy for a trawler painted grey
              have a look at the last Cod Wars.....Iceland seemed to worry the RN with same
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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              • #22
                Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post

                have a look at the last Cod Wars.....Iceland seemed to worry the RN with same
                Only because leaving a smoking heap of splinters and an oil slick was seen as a bit ungentlemanly...
                'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                  legend has it the 747 slowed down!
                  I'll believe it. The 747 is the fastest civilian airliner.

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                  • #24
                    The legend is false, I'm afraid. A Fouga is good for 360 kts and all commercial traffic is limited to a max of 250 knots in a control zone, so when the 747 was tooling about at low level, it was not giving it welly (Pope or not, it wasn't allowed to, nor did it need to, as the Pope wanted to see the country and the people looking up at him) but it was doing about 210 kts and had flaps out and the Fougas could keep up easily. Fougas were very clean aircraft, aerodynamically and only had a small amount of draggy objects sticking out of them. They weren't overpowered but they weren't as slow as people think, either.

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                    • #25
                      the 747 may be the current fastest civilian airliner but the long retired Convair 880 was fastest of all and even the Citation X flies faster than a 747.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                        The legend is false, I'm afraid. A Fouga is good for 360 kts and all commercial traffic is limited to a max of 250 knots in a control zone, so when the 747 was tooling about at low level, it was not giving it welly (Pope or not, it wasn't allowed to, nor did it need to, as the Pope wanted to see the country and the people looking up at him) but it was doing about 210 kts and had flaps out and the Fougas could keep up easily. Fougas were very clean aircraft, aerodynamically and only had a small amount of draggy objects sticking out of them. They weren't overpowered but they weren't as slow as people think, either.
                        Wanna bet that is where the legend comes from? I think I have seen that pic with the 747 with the flaps out and the Fougas without

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                        • #27
                          Concorde?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                            The legend is false, I'm afraid. A Fouga is good for 360 kts and all commercial traffic is limited to a max of 250 knots in a control zone.
                            It’s not a limit(except US airspace) it is a restriction that can be lifted by ATC, you regularly hear ATC say “free speed” most civil airliners will climb at over 300kts.

                            The Fouga could do about 320 level and clean and max 400 in a dive.
                            Last edited by Charlie252; 13 November 2019, 12:54.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                              Only because leaving a smoking heap of splinters and an oil slick was seen as a bit ungentlemanly...
                              Yeah a heavy trawler will do that to a soft skinned frigate... and the photos tell the whole story
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Laners View Post
                                My quiet and peaceful neck of the woods here in Carbury in Kildare is often interrupted by a pair of PC-9s reenacting the Battle of Britain overhead , as to what practical reason there is for such aerial maneuvers in a trainer aircraft is beyond me when you consider that a Casa is most likely were these pilots will be flying operationally .
                                Thy're back , Battle of Britain the Sequel being performed over head this AM , seems they only like nice clear sunny sky .
                                Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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