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  1. #1
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Subdued unit flashes: Good idea or waste of money?

    Ok Folks, I just wanted to test the waters and guage peoples opinions on the idea of subdued(black/green) unit flashes.

    Duty rumour has it that these are soon going on issue to Infantry units as a way of "fostering corps identity" and "raising morale"(seriously?).

    What do people think? A good idea or a waste of money.

    My own personal opinion is that they are a retrograde move back to having all manner of badges on a DPM uniform which was meant to do away with that.
    I think once we go down this route where does it end?Do we go back to wearing marksmans badges etc on the DPM's?
    And if we are going to be forced down this road why oh why didn't the people who spec'd the new DPM uniform allow for said badges by including velcro on the smock to attach them to??
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  2. #2
    Sergeant Major
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    A good idea. Military units are essentially disciplined gangs capable of carrying out controlled and organised violence at the behest of the state.

    The idea of an"Infantry Corps" identity to me is a failure. Nobody cares about the concept of the corps as a whole. When it comprises the majority of the army it doesn't work - people want to belong to something special or different.

    People are loyal to their particular units and the identity of units is something that should be encouraged for esprit de corps, something the DF have historically failed at, as units are constantly raised and disbanded. The Yanks at least have the system of "reactivating" defunct units, so it adopts the history etc of its predecessors and gives its personnel something to live up.

    I've noticed a number of units went and got their own done anyway, I've observed 1 BAR, 3 BN and 28 BN sporting unit flashes on non issue kit such as daysacks, holsters, pouches etc, and senior officers sporting them on DPM already.

    The new smocks that I've observed have a velcro patch for the new unit flashes.

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  4. #3
    C/S ArdMhacha's Avatar
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    I like the idea of unit flashes on DPMs, I've said it before regarding the beret, if a Pte, a Sgmn and a Gnr are standing beside each other in DPMs no one can tell which corp they come from. A unit flash might encourage some unit pride among troops which is sadly lacking in my opinion

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  6. #4
    BQMS spider pig's Avatar
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    Both of the larger call signs at my location have them as have many of the college branches in dftc. I’m for it as it brings back unit identity but as you said apod. Where do you draw the line? As it stands, divers, parachute qualified, Irish speakers and arw as well as the AR have patches identifying them
    Sir I cant find my peltors........Private they are on your face

  7. #5
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    @apod

    Absolutely agree with the point on Velcro on the uniform.

    Personally it is probably a low cost way aid to improve espirit de corps which is very important.

    I could have Sworn I saw someone from your unit sporting one

  8. #6
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    Why not follow the route the BA took some years back, put unit abbreviation on the rank slider. 1BAR, 7INF, 2LSB etc.
    The combat uniform is no place for any identifier other than subtle name and rank markings. If you start with unit flashes, subdued or not, where does it stop?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  10. #7
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    A good idea in my opinion. Esprit de corps, unit cohesion and unit loyalty is very much lacking.
    Several units are already wearing subdued unit flashes on UBACS unofficially.

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  12. #8
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    The new smocks that I've observed have a velcro patch for the new unit flashes.
    Nope. Their is a velcro panel on the right sleeve UBAC pocket on the new shirts but nothing on the new smocks. Bit of an oversight.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    @apod

    Absolutely agree with the point on Velcro on the uniform.

    Personally it is probably a low cost way aid to improve espirit de corps which is very important.

    I could have Sworn I saw someone from your unit sporting one
    Indeed. Both the boss and the BSM are wearing them. Does that make it kosher though if the two top dogs in the unit chin off the regs? What do we tell the young lads/lasses?? Can they do the same??
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

  13. #9
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    I got one done for our sub-unit when I was in the 20th but we had very separate identities in the companies due to the history . That subdued sub-unit flash then made it into that new book ... not sure what do you do about Corps units where do you draw the line, if you are not wearing UBACS you will need a velcro circle a la o/seas mission which for RDF is agin regulations fkit its enough hassle making them wear a cultaca flash
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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  14. #10
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    I think the large velcro panels on the UBACS and the lack of a clear "Badging policy" have a lot to answer for. Since we got the UBACS people have lost the run of themselves.They see a piece of velcro and the HAVE to put something on it.

    I think the pockets on the new shirt and smocks are a disaster regards badge placement.It was very simple on the old DPM's. 1.5 inches below the highest point of the shoulder seam was where your tricolour and mission badges went. Now what? The shirt can't fit ANYTHING above the UBACS pocket so you must mount your mission badge on the velcro. Snag is that no one told paddy the pig what the "blanking plates" on UBACS pockets are for(Attaching your badges too so they have a larger surface area to grip onto so you don't loose your badges if the velcro gets dirty/sandy) and hence most lads wadi them and attach the badges directly onto the velcro.
    On the other sleeve the powers that be had a dilemma.Fit another UBACS pocket and then where does your tricolour go? Answer? pre-stitch it to the blanking plate but then oh no it's a disaster the tri-colour wont be exactly 1.5 inches below the shoulder seam!! So now when you wear your shirt it looks lopsided.( I notice the new Naval DPM shirts have copied the 2nd gen British PCS uniform velcro panels in that the blanking plate has a "window frame" type velcro holding on the panel.The panels don't stick out rigidly and the sleeves are easier to fold up.It also discourages ditching the blanking plates)

    Seriously, Could we not have thought outside the box and just changed the regs to allow for this?? As for the new smocks.The UBACs pockets are too far down the sleeves.Nearly on the elbows.Seemingly to make space for a tri-colour and a mission badge,which again will have to be sewed on at expense to the troops. Why couldn't the pockets have been higher and have velcro panels on them with the tri-colour pre-stitched to the left blanking plate?????? A lot simpler.
    Last edited by apod; 26th November 2019 at 18:57.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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  16. #11
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    If unit identity is a problem, the unit could be stitched in on the rank slider below the rank..... if you need it....but as separate entity on a field uniform.....no...no.no.. sheer elitism and a waste of money bad enough the Oglaigh na hEireann patch as if we didn't know who the people in the uniforms were...… Ships crests on the Naval stuff next!
    Time for another break I think......

  17. #12
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    Markings on rank sliders is silly. We are too small with too many small units to be viable.

    Means every BSM, BQMS, most Coy Sgts, most CQMS, most Lt Cols, all Cols etc would all need bespoke rank markings and change them every time they move units

    For reference, I do not have CS4 to hand but back of an envelope figures you are looking at around 40 BSM, 40 BQMS, 250 CQMS, 220 Coy Sgts, 40 Cols, 100+ Lt Cols ... starts to get complicated quickly
    Last edited by Fantasia; 26th November 2019 at 22:18.

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  19. #13
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    Markings on rank sliders is silly. We are too small with too many small units to be viable.

    Means every BSM, BQMS, most Coy Sgts, most CQMS, most Lt Cols, all Cols etc would all need bespoke rank markings and change them every time they move units

    For reference, I do not have CS4 to hand but back of an envelope figures you are looking at around 40 BSM, 40 BQMS, 250 CQMS, 220 Coy Sgts, 40 Cols, 100+ Lt Cols ... starts to get complicated quickly
    Could the rank slides not just go with the job, and be handed over from one post occupier to the next, along with the keys and other paraphernalia of the posting?
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  21. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    Could the rank slides not just go with the job, and be handed over from one post occupier to the next, along with the keys and other paraphernalia of the posting?
    So now we would have to share rank markings and be reliant on the previous appointment holder to hand over theirs?

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  23. #15
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    If unit identity is a problem, the unit could be stitched in on the rank slider below the rank..... if you need it....but as separate entity on a field uniform.....no...no.no.. sheer elitism and a waste of money bad enough the Oglaigh na hEireann patch as if we didn't know who the people in the uniforms were...… Ships crests on the Naval stuff next!
    Well then we don't need them in any form, stick to the generic...rank and name,,,
    Time for another break I think......

  24. #16
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    So now we would have to share rank markings and be reliant on the previous appointment holder to hand over theirs?
    I was being a bit tongue in cheek
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  25. #17
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Genuine question - I was always used to looking at cap-badge, or stable belt to have an idea of what skills an individual I didn’t know might have - REME, RAMC, Signals, Driver etc.

    Is there any way of doing that at present in the Army, or would these proposed flashes provide that information?
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  26. #18
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    Genuine question - I was always used to looking at cap-badge, or stable belt to have an idea of what skills an individual I didn’t know might have - REME, RAMC, Signals, Driver etc.

    Is there any way of doing that at present in the Army, or would these proposed flashes provide that information?
    The subdued flashes would tell you the unit they are from.

    There is specialist qualifications (for DPMs) for parachute wings, EOD etc

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  28. #19
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    I've seen Mr. Protac is doing Subdued Zap "Zap Badges" on his site that include some unit flashes already. If we don't want to go down the full flash route would a Tactical recognition flash work?
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

  29. #20
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    I think subdued unit flashes are a good idea.....they promote unit cohesion and a identity, especially with personnel from multiple units together.

    However, as Apod has said, the real issues are putting limits on what should be worn on dpm and updating regs to match. Decent uniform design would help too, instead of trying to re-invent the wheel for Irish purposes.
    Last edited by X-RayOne; 28th November 2019 at 10:24.
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

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  31. #21
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    RDF dont get UBACS anyway so divisive in an inf and cav unit .
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  32. #22
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    RDF dont get UBACS anyway so divisive in an inf and cav unit .
    Doesn't stop them wearing them though does it?? Just like the Boonie hat and Barracks jacket. And remember that the issue of BFO pieces of "must fill up with badges" velcro is not just confined to the UBACS now the new shirt is coming on stream.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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