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  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
    Wanting all private’s to be unpaid
    Don't worry. I got it

    Comment


    • Not sure which thread to put this in.

      Last edited by batterysgt; 4 February 2020, 09:08.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by batterysgt View Post
        Not sure which thread to put this in.

        https://www.forces.net/news/army-res...nt-single-unit
        A thread open already but very interesting. Largest other deployments I can think of in recent years were TA infantry companies deployed as divisional headquarters security during and shortly after the Iraq War.

        I believe they have deployed reservists in company strength to Cyprus previously too but this is a bit larger than that.

        Comment


        • Part 1 : Extract R5 which is the governing regulation for Reservists.

          Para 75 (1)
          The rates of pay prescribed in paragraph 18 of Defence Force Regulations S.3 in respect
          of members of the Army Reserve and paragraph 104 of Defence Force Regulations S.3 in respect of
          members of the Naval Service Reserve for personnel of the Permanent Defence Force shall apply to
          reservists of corresponding ranks, grades and classes attending at any of the courses of training or
          instruction or other authorised duties provided for in paragraph 40 of these Regulations or engaged
          on security duties provided for in paragraph 41.

          So that says your pay rates are set out in S3. Now S.3 is very like a bad excel spreadsheet pasted into a book so it will take me a little time to pull it out.
          Last edited by trellheim; 4 February 2020, 14:25.
          "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

          "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

          Comment


          • Part II : Defence Act 1954 (restated )

            Para 97 (2) (a)


            The Minister may, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, make
            regulations in relation to the following matters— (i) the forfeitures and deductions to which the pay, allowances and gratuities
            of and grants to members of the Defence Forces may be subjected,

            (d)

            Every regulation made under this subsection shall be laid before each House of
            the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made... (extra about annulments not given here for brevity
            See http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1.../en/html#sec97


            There have been quite a few - search HERE https://opac.oireachtas.ie/knowvatio...lidatedSearch/ for S.3 Defence Force Regulations to see where documents have been laid according to the law. There is none I can find in the FEMPI period that are relevant except the FEMPI acts themselves.
            Last edited by trellheim; 4 February 2020, 14:46.
            "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

            "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

            Comment


            • So that leaves two potential scenarios.

              - S.3 was amended (possibly with a few iterations) around the time of FEMPI to reduce reserve pay in line with the then reduced PDF pay scales less 10% and has not been updated since.

              or

              - An executive decision was made to change this on the back of FEMPI decisions with no change made to S.3 (which should have happened).

              I'm not sure if RDFRA could access the latest S.3 documents with a FOI? Restricted?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                Part 1 : Extract R5 which is the governing regulation for Reservists.

                Para 75 (1)


                So that says your pay rates are set out in S3. Now S.3 is very like a bad excel spreadsheet pasted into a book so it will take me a little time to pull it out.
                Note that Para 75 to paraphrase says PDF and RDF paid the same

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                  So that leaves two potential scenarios.

                  - S.3 was amended (possibly with a few iterations) around the time of FEMPI to reduce reserve pay in line with the then reduced PDF pay scales less 10% and has not been updated since.

                  or

                  - An executive decision was made to change this on the back of FEMPI decisions with no change made to S.3 (which should have happened).

                  I'm not sure if RDFRA could access the latest S.3 documents with a FOI? Restricted?
                  DFRs don’t have to be FOI’ed... they are available on IKON for all to see and there is a legal requirement for all to be familiar with them.

                  There are a couple of exceptions to that but pay, discipline etc are available for the world to see

                  Comment


                  • Regulations are not restricted. By law they mostly do not need to be laid at the oireachtas but that does not stop them being public documents , they are legislation.

                    Part III - For FEMPI Purposes what is a public servant

                    “public servant” means—

                    (a) a person who is employed by, or who holds any office or other position in, a public service body,

                    (b) a member of either House of the Oireachtas or of a local authority (within the meaning of the Local Government Act 2001 ),

                    (c) a member of the European Parliament for a constituency in the State, being a member who is in receipt of the salary specified in section 2 (2) of the European Parliament (Irish Constituency Members) Act 2009 , or

                    (d) the holder of a qualifying office,

                    but does not include the President, a member of the judiciary or a military judge appointed under Chapter IVC of Part V of the Defence Act 1954 (as amended by the Defence (Amendment) Act 2007 );

                    “public service body” means—

                    (a) the Civil Service,

                    (b) the Garda Síochána,

                    (c) the Permanent Defence Force,
                    + ors

                    See http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2...d/en/html#sec1.

                    RDF are specifically excluded as no pension obligation on DOD to pay us one, it is something that may come and bite them here. Therefore we are not Public Servants.
                    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                    Comment


                    • Note that Para 75 to paraphrase says PDF and RDF paid the same
                      No it does not. It says that the rates for RDF as those set down for PDF in S.3. , it doesnt say "whatever the PDF are currently paid". It could have said "the rate of pay for RDF shall be the same as that currently paid to PDF". It does not, instead it says - look in S.3 for RDF Pay rates.

                      The different is huge.
                      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                      Comment


                      • PART IV

                        FEMPI

                        Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No. 2) Act 2009
                        2.— (1) A relevant provision that fixes the remuneration, or any part of the remuneration, of a public servant shall be taken to have been amended, with effect on and from 1 January 2010, in accordance with this section.
                        The electronic Irish Statute Book (eISB) comprises the Acts of the Oireachtas (Parliament), Statutory Instruments, Legislation Directory, Constitution and a limited number of pre-1922 Acts.


                        RDF are not public servants - see above.
                        "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                        "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                        Comment


                        • Excellent stuff. We should take them to court.

                          Comment


                          • Part v

                            s3

                            18. (1) (a) on and from 1 june, 1995 the weekly rates and scales of pay of members of the line class holding non-commissioned army rank shall be as follows:-


                            sergeant (1st point of payscale) £282.61 ... Note my copy of s.3 is old.




                            Supplementary notes: I've checked all the civil service circulars and cant find anything else.

                            Please check this logic. I've open sourced it for that reason

                            Finally Haddington Road Agreement

                            The rate for paid training for members of the RDF will be reduced by 10% subject to consultation with the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association (RDFRA).
                            . There was never any consultation and never any law passed to . https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https:/...051.pdf#page=1

                            This is the act that implements HRA http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2.../en/print.html - no mention of RDF.

                            My conclusions.

                            1. FEMPI never applied to the RDF as FEMPI specifically applies to PDF only
                            2. RDF are on pre FEMPI payscales
                            3. DOD never implemented the 10% RDF paycut in law
                            4. DOD never equalised RDF payscales properly to match PDF
                            5. DOD never consulted with RDFRA as laid out in HRA either.
                            6. DOD got the actual calculations of the payscales wrong anyway.

                            Only (6) above has been fixed by the department



                            Way I see it we are on S.3 payscales.
                            Last edited by trellheim; 4 February 2020, 22:27.
                            "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                            "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                            Comment


                            • Court and get back what has been wrongfully taken from us. More press exposure.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                                Just a question regarding RDF pay. After 14 days FTT, I was assuming that my pay would be two weeks of PDF pay at my rank multiplied by 90%? I'm looking at the post 2013 pay scales with effect from 01.01.18. I'm also aware that reservists are only ever paid on point one of the scale.

                                My actual final gross pay seems closer to 87% of the PDF pay rate. Not sure what the extra 3% deducted is for. Problem is that the payslip just gives the gross amount and not the number if days it is for.
                                @auldsod

                                Everyone in the RDF owes you a pint




                                Pity the pubs are closed



                                It’s not the full (on average) 19% but it’s on average 9%

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