Restoration of RDF pay

[Auldsod]

Being honest, I'm less worried about the working time and entitlement to holidays and more worried about the fact that the pay scales seem to be years out of whack.

At least when there was no 10% (it's more from what I can see) difference to the PDF, it was difficult to justify not noticing the difference.

[DeV]

As far as I can see from media and open source PDFORRA reports:

The DF is exempt until the Organisation of Working Time Act is amended.

The High Court case was settled it wasn’t found to be unconstitutional.

The European Committee on Social Rights ruling doesn’t relate to the Organisation of Working Time Act or WTD


I’m open to correction but that’s what a bit of googling says

[Bravo20]

Either way, Auldsod seems to have identified a pay issue that has slipped us all by.

[morpheus]

100% correct.PDFORRA have taken cases to the High court recently,and won, based on the working time directive. DF Management is still trying to work out how to implement it,but they have no choice.They must.

If this happens, will back pay have to be paid? also if thats the case, i assume that RDF will also be able to claim this back?

[Auldsod]

Either way, Auldsod seems to have identified a pay issue that has slipped us all by.

I didn't get a chance today but I'll ring the RDFRA tomorrow.

I've done some work on excel and worked out the % difference between RDF and PDF pay. It's particularly pronounced at the Corporal rank. 14% lower than PDF at the lowest scale! My last pay was exactly in line with the scale below taken from military.ie for the RDF.

If I'm right about the below, this will probably warrant it's own thread. (non sure if the below link will work).

pay calcs.PNG

[morpheus]

This sounds completely stupid, but i always assumed that we got the same basic pay... FS

[Auldsod]

This sounds completely stupid, but i always assumed that we got the same basic pay... FS

Nope

I don't see this as something that'll get fixed seeing as the 10% cut is still there but I'd be interested to hear the reason there is such a difference.

(just a note on my calcs above that they are all on point one of PDF scale and do NOT include MSA)

[DeV]

Few things:
Make sure your going by line pay only, no allowances
Make sure your going by a 7 day week (if you only did eg Mon-Fri you are paid 5/7th of a PDF week)
There are different pay scales depending on when you joined


I’ll see if I can get some info

[DeV]

This sounds completely stupid, but i always assumed that we got the same basic pay... FS

Lowest point on the scale for rank (you need to do 365 Mandays in a rank to move up an increment for that rank)

Since 2011 I think it was, RDF pay has been 10% less - think it was in the LRA

The only rank that is different is a RDF 2/Lt is paid the same as a RDF Lt

[Auldsod]

Few things:
Make sure your going by line pay only, no allowances
Make sure your going by a 7 day week (if you only did eg Mon-Fri you are paid 5/7th of a PDF week)
There are different pay scales depending on when you joined


I’ll see if I can get some info

- I've calculated line pay only. No allowances. All detail available online.
- I've made my calculation based on 14 days FTT. 7 days (or half the final gross amount) matched exactly the weekly pay per military.ie (which is definitely not 90% of current post 2013 joining PDF pay).
- Joined post 2011 and post 2013 for that matter so I'm on newer lower payscales (which seem to include some higher allowances to balance things out by stealth. Most of these only receivable by PDF of course).

[Auldsod]

Also, could a mod possibly move the 2018 posts plus into a new thread? Not really about recruit training any more.

[apod]

http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=1286
http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=1499
http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=1523

[DeV]

http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=1286
http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=1499
http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=1523

Not found to be unconstitutional
DoD admitted not in compliance with WTD
It is still on the Statute books so the DF remains exempt until legisation to amend the Organisation of Working Time is brought forward, passes all stages in the Oireachtas and is signed by the C in C

[morpheus]

So the real question is when can i call the Pay section to give out and claim the difference?

[Auldsod]

For anyone interested, I've received information confirmation on the pay per the DoD. RDF are indeed on a lower scale separate to the PDF. It is not the current PDF scale (either pre or post 2013) less 90%. It's a separate lower scale less 10% The pay section are just operating with the scale they've been given which is fair enough. The pay rates on military.ie are the current rates being paid to RDF.

It's something to be researched by the representative body now. Will be interested to see where it goes.

[Bravo20]

I think you are owed several pints for that Auldsod.

[Auldsod]

I think you are owed several pints for that Auldsod.

If it goes anywhere and there is back pay (which there won't), I'll take all the pints offered :-)

[DeV]

Are the pay rates in a DFR, AFC etc?

[trellheim]

DOD must change a few regulations all right

Pay rates are defined in S3 which is a regulation

[trellheim]

The rates of pay prescribed in paragraph 18 of Defence Force Regulations S.3 in respect
of members of the Army Reserve and paragraph 104 of Defence Force Regulations S.3 in respect of
members of the Naval Service Reserve for personnel of the Permanent Defence Force shall apply to
reservists of corresponding ranks, grades and classes attending at any of the courses of training or
R.5
instruction or other authorised duties provided for in paragraph 40 of these Regulations or engaged
on security duties provided for in paragraph 41.

R5 Para 75

I cannot find a recent copy of S3 and there is not a recent one laid in the oireachtas library

[Auldsod]

R5 Para 75

I cannot find a recent copy of S3 and there is not a recent one laid in the oireachtas library

Interesting, where you would you get access to the above documentation? Online?

My reading of the above is that the rates of pay of members (AR+NSR) 'for personnel of the Permanent Defence Forces shall apply to reservists of corresponding ranks, grades and classes attending at any of the courses of training or R.5 instruction etc...' could either state that the payscales themselves are in the regulation OR that they should match those of the PDF (possibly reduced by 10% with another regulation). It's an incredibly badly worded from what I can see or maybe I'm just bad at reading legalese.

You wouldn't happen to know if this was raised or noticed before. If there is a decision made that the RDF are indeed on sub 10% of PDF pay; fair enough - let the RDFRA deal with it. The misconception that our pay is PDF pay less 10% needs to stop being touted around as I've heard it numerous times since I've joined.

I'm not sure what worries me more.

1. That this difference in pay was not noticed before.

or

2. It was noticed before but nothing was done about it for some reason.

[trellheim]

Technically what should have happened is that Para 18 should have been amended to bring into force the 10% pay cut as that is what has legal force . S3 is full of tables of pay rates and the like. If you go to http://opac.oireachtas.ie/liberty/libraryHome.do and search for "pay and allowances" you will find several amendments to S3

Edit : Para 97 of the Act refers: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1.../en/html#sec97 which deals with Pay etc.

(d) Every regulation made under this subsection shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made and, if a resolution annulling the regulation is passed by either such House within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which that House has sat after the regulation has been laid before it, such regulation shall be annulled accordingly but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done under such regulation.

-> therefore, if its not in the oireachtas library of documents laid its shaky

Final Edit : the 2007 Act restatement said THIS

In addition to the Statutory Instruments listed in this Foreword, there
are also a large number of Regulations made by the Minister under the Defence Acts and which
deal with the day to day management of the Defence Forces. These are not included in the Restatement
in view of the fact that they are subject to continuing amendment and the sheer volume
of their content would not make it feasible to include them. Essentially these are internal documents
and any information required as to their content would be available on request from Legislation
Branch of the Department of Defence. Therefore, they are not deemed appropriate for inclusion
in the Restatement.

[DeV]

If you contact Legislation Branch of DoD they should be able to email you an up to date S3, it isn’t restricted

[Poiuyt]

...let the RDFRA deal with it...

There is so much wrong with this sentence that I don't know where to begin.

[Auldsod]

Just a further update on the below considering the new LRA 2 pay scale for the PDF as of the 1st of October this year.

An RDF Corporal for example is now on weekly pay of EUR 512.07.

A PFD Corporal (before MSA) is on EUR 630.49 at the first point of the scale.

The RDF weekly rate is now 18.7% less than the full time equivalent.

I've added the sources for the data below. I can confirm the RDF scale is current as I was paid off these rates this month.

http://www.military.ie/careers/reser.../rates-of-pay/
http://www.military.ie/fileadmin/use...f_Oct_2018.pdf