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  1. #176
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    PART IV

    FEMPI

    Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No. 2) Act 2009
    2.— (1) A relevant provision that fixes the remuneration, or any part of the remuneration, of a public servant shall be taken to have been amended, with effect on and from 1 January 2010, in accordance with this section.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2...nacted/en/html

    RDF are not public servants - see above.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  2. #177
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    Excellent stuff. We should take them to court.

  3. #178
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Part v

    s3

    18. (1) (a) on and from 1 june, 1995 the weekly rates and scales of pay of members of the line class holding non-commissioned army rank shall be as follows:-


    sergeant (1st point of payscale) £282.61 ... Note my copy of s.3 is old.




    Supplementary notes: I've checked all the civil service circulars and cant find anything else.

    Please check this logic. I've open sourced it for that reason

    Finally Haddington Road Agreement

    The rate for paid training for members of the RDF will be reduced by 10% subject to consultation with the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association (RDFRA).
    . There was never any consultation and never any law passed to . https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https:/...051.pdf#page=1

    This is the act that implements HRA http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2.../en/print.html - no mention of RDF.

    My conclusions.

    1. FEMPI never applied to the RDF as FEMPI specifically applies to PDF only
    2. RDF are on pre FEMPI payscales
    3. DOD never implemented the 10% RDF paycut in law
    4. DOD never equalised RDF payscales properly to match PDF
    5. DOD never consulted with RDFRA as laid out in HRA either.
    6. DOD got the actual calculations of the payscales wrong anyway.

    Only (6) above has been fixed by the department



    Way I see it we are on S.3 payscales.
    Last edited by trellheim; 4th February 2020 at 22:27.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  5. #179
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    Court and get back what has been wrongfully taken from us. More press exposure.

  6. #180
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Just a question regarding RDF pay. After 14 days FTT, I was assuming that my pay would be two weeks of PDF pay at my rank multiplied by 90%? I'm looking at the post 2013 pay scales with effect from 01.01.18. I'm also aware that reservists are only ever paid on point one of the scale.

    My actual final gross pay seems closer to 87% of the PDF pay rate. Not sure what the extra 3% deducted is for. Problem is that the payslip just gives the gross amount and not the number if days it is for.
    @auldsod

    Everyone in the RDF owes you a pint


    https://twitter.com/rdfrepassoc/stat...502382080?s=21

    Pity the pubs are closed



    It’s not the full (on average) 19% but it’s on average 9%

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  8. #181
    Sergeant Major Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    @auldsod

    Everyone in the RDF owes you a pint


    https://twitter.com/rdfrepassoc/stat...502382080?s=21

    Pity the pubs are closed



    It’s not the full (on average) 19% but it’s on average 9%
    Haha. I'll definitely be spending some of my back pay on a few beers (from the off licence for now unfortunately).

    Ah, I just initially crunched the numbers and raised the issue - I'm sure the real work here was behind the scenes between RDFRA and the Department. Can't have been easy.

    Just running the numbers again; someone in the rank of Cpl/LS in particular might actually be finding themselves with a surprising amount of back pay especially if they have put down a large number of man days over the period.

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  10. #182
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Haha. I'll definitely be spending some of my back pay on a few beers (from the off licence for now unfortunately).

    Ah, I just initially crunched the numbers and raised the issue - I'm sure the real work here was behind the scenes between RDFRA and the Department. Can't have been easy.

    Just running the numbers again; someone in the rank of Cpl/LS in particular might actually be finding themselves with a surprising amount of back pay especially if they have put down a large number of man days over the period.


    In fairness, as far as I know, no one knew about the more than 10% discrepancy until you highlighted it


    Credit to RDFRA as well
    Last edited by DeV; 26th January 2021 at 18:11.

  11. #183
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    Well done, will be spent on new tabs for the kids.

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  13. #184
    Feldwebel Bayern Fan's Avatar
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    However, the additional 10% reduction under the Haddington Road Agreement is not included in these restorations. Will the pay restoration include interest?

    If RDF members being underpaid were members of an ethnic group, the woke muppets would invade the dail, making the storming of the Basteille look like a Teddy bears picnic.
    Fail to prepare, prepare to fail

  14. #185
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayern Fan View Post
    However, the additional 10% reduction under the Haddington Road Agreement is not included in these restorations. Will the pay restoration include interest?

    If RDF members being underpaid were members of an ethnic group, the woke muppets would invade the dail, making the storming of the Basteille look like a Teddy bears picnic.

    The Minister must have heard you


    https://twitter.com/rdfrepassoc/stat...692261379?s=21

    FEMPI 10% restored from 1 January 2021 (arrears also being paid this Friday)

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  16. #186
    Sergeant Major Auldsod's Avatar
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    Been a great week for the reserve at least on the pay front and all credit to RDFRA.

    No mean feat considering that reversing these cuts could easily have been on the back burner considering the current uncertain climate the state now finds itself in.

    Maybe these could be the beginnings of wider change...

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  18. #187
    Commander in Chief
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    A new broom.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  20. #188
    Sergeant Major Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    A new broom.
    Better than no broom.

  21. #189
    Major General
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    Better then old broom.

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  23. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Been a great week for the reserve at least on the pay front and all credit to RDFRA.

    No mean feat considering that reversing these cuts could easily have been on the back burner considering the current uncertain climate the state now finds itself in.

    Maybe these could be the beginnings of wider change...
    Hopefully it’s a sign that meaningful improvements in pay and conditions are on their way for the PDF also.

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  25. #191
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggie View Post
    Hopefully it’s a sign that meaningful improvements in pay and conditions are on their way for the PDF also.
    Get real will ya. The reason the Minister weighed in on this is because their must have been a "Holy F**k we better sort this out fast or the RDF will down tools just when the DF needs them most"moment somewhere on high.

    There will be zero impact on our terms and conditions as it suits the DoD to run us down.Less pensions to pay out.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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  27. #192
    Sergeant Major Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Get real will ya. The reason the Minister weighed in on this is because their must have been a "Holy F**k we better sort this out fast or the RDF will down tools just when the DF needs them most"moment somewhere on high.

    There will be zero impact on our terms and conditions as it suits the DoD to run us down.Less pensions to pay out.
    I can understand your pessimism about the possibility of any improvements to PDF pay and conditions being down the line and but I genuinely hope this commission leads to some movement where it's deserved most.

    I do however believe the suggestion that the movement on pay was for fear of RDF withdrawing labour is pure fantasy. I doubt most who assisted in 2020 and are still assisting this year are too worried about what's on their pay slips. You don't join the reserve to make money and I'm sure many wouldn't have cared if they had received nothing for some of the mandays put down...
    Last edited by Auldsod; 28th January 2021 at 19:50.

  28. #193
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Get real will ya. The reason the Minister weighed in on this is because their must have been a "Holy F**k we better sort this out fast or the RDF will down tools just when the DF needs them most"moment somewhere on high.
    Someone must have pointed out a few hard facts. Also they still have no legal basis for it (has anyone got a recent copy of S3 )
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  30. #194
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    I can understand your pessimism about the possibility of any improvements to PDF pay and conditions being down the line and but I genuinely hope this commission leads to some movement where it's deserved most.

    I do however believe the suggestion that the movement on pay was for fear of RDF withdrawing labour is pure fantasy. I doubt most who assisted in 2020 and are still assisting this year are too worried about what's on their pay slips. You don't join the reserve to make money and I'm sure many wouldn't have cared if they had received nothing for some of the mandays put down...
    Pay is outside CoDF’s remit
    Conditions (HR policy) are within

  31. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Get real will ya. The reason the Minister weighed in on this is because their must have been a "Holy F**k we better sort this out fast or the RDF will down tools just when the DF needs them most"moment somewhere on high.

    There will be zero impact on our terms and conditions as it suits the DoD to run us down.Less pensions to pay out.
    I really think there is a big shift in culture underway at the DoD. Hopefully it’s not snuffed out.

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  33. #196
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    From the start of 2016 or end of 2016 for the repayment? Just checked accounts there now, nought!

    It's going to be a small amount anyway due but still be nice to get it.

  34. #197
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    I really think there is a big shift in culture underway at the DoD. Hopefully it’s not snuffed out.
    I really doubt it. The Department could fix all that is wrong without a commission, immediately. Take the above example - RDF pay; deduction with no legal backing and no consultation as per Haddington Road. Any backdating of this ? No. Why ? PDF are covered by FEMPI and their rates are set there ( not in S3 or at least weren't a couple of months ago when I looked last ) , ours are not, not even by reference
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  36. #198
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infy View Post
    From the start of 2016 or end of 2016 for the repayment? Just checked accounts there now, nought!

    It's going to be a small amount anyway due but still be nice to get it.
    It would have been a set date in 2016 so mandays after that date should have been at that rate (not backdated)

  37. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infy View Post
    From the start of 2016 or end of 2016 for the repayment? Just checked accounts there now, nought!

    It's going to be a small amount anyway due but still be nice to get it.
    The relevant PDF pay increases took place on the following dates:
    01-Jan-16 (Cpl & L/S only)
    01-Apr-17
    01-Jan-18
    01-Oct-18
    01-Jan-19
    01-Sep-19
    01-Jan-20
    01-Oct-20
    01-Jan-21

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  39. #200
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    I can understand your pessimism about the possibility of any improvements to PDF pay and conditions being down the line and but I genuinely hope this commission leads to some movement where it's deserved most.

    I do however believe the suggestion that the movement on pay was for fear of RDF withdrawing labour is pure fantasy. I doubt most who assisted in 2020 and are still assisting this year are too worried about what's on their pay slips. You don't join the reserve to make money and I'm sure many wouldn't have cared if they had received nothing for some of the mandays put down...
    1/ If you honestly believe that that is not the way the DoD Operate than I put it to you that YOU are the one indulging in Fantasy. The DoD do not do ANYTHING that is cost increasing unless the have a gun put to their heads.Fact.

    2/ You have obviously not been reading any of my more recent posts on the help the AR has given to the PDF if you think that is what I am implying.I am saying that is what the Civil servants (probably) think.Not what we do.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggie View Post
    I really think there is a big shift in culture underway at the DoD. Hopefully it’s not snuffed out.
    And I am the next Chief of Staff of 100,000 strong DF,with 2 Aircraft carriers, a fleet of MBTs and laser rifles for all Seriously??
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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