Restoration of RDF pay

[DeV]

Assuming the pay scales up are correct

It also depends on if you joined pre or post 1 Jan 2013

[Auldsod]

The pay scales up are correct. I've received confirmation from pay on that. Unfortunately you'll have to take my word for it on that.

Being honest, Dev - half of your posts include pasted web links to documents so I'm assuming you understand the need to put some trust in documentation posted on government websites. The PDF pay scale is actually dated. Sounds like you don't want to accept you've been underpaid the last few years

I'm post 2013 so they're correct for me. To the best of my knowledge, pre or post 2013 is irrelevant with regards RDF pay and it's a single scale.

Allowances are a different story however.

Some allowances post 2013 are actually higher now it might be possible that pre 2013 RDF members could actually be at a disadvantage with relation to some payments.

[trellheim]

RDF Pay is Governed by The Regulation R5. BROAD HINT to a box search. Have a look at what Paragraph 75 says.

Also Haddington Road is the current public service pay agreement

[Auldsod]

RDF Pay is Governed by The Regulation R5. BROAD HINT to a box search. Have a look at what Paragraph 75 says.

Also Haddington Road is the current public service pay agreement

I understand that they are governed by R5. I attained a copy and the pay scale isn't in it. Apparently not every amendment will be added to the final published document. It helped me finally understand cadet pay but not RDF pay.

My issue is less with the fact we are on a scale that is obviously not linked to the Haddington road agreement but that the RDFRA in any communication I have had (electronically and in person) with them state as gospel that we are on PDF pay less 10%. If RDF pay is out of sync with with current PDF pay; RDFRA should be looking to get this updated on R5 with the unfortunate 10%.

Again, I understand that RDF pay isn't linked to any of the current IR agreements but rather that it's directly advised via regulation. My issue is that there is a growing divergence beyond the 10% gap already known and that has either it not been identified or if it already has, there is no appetite by RDFRA to raise with the DoD and rectify.

A RDF corporal being paid less than 20% of PDF pay is pretty damning and there seem to have been a lot of heads deep in a lot of sand for a while.

[trellheim]

The only person who can change a regulation is the minister. By law the Minister has to sign off any changes since no other entity can override what is secondary legislation.

[DeV]

Being honest, Dev - half of your posts include pasted web links to documents so I'm assuming you understand the need to put some trust in documentation posted on government websites. The PDF pay scale is actually dated. Sounds like you don't want to accept you've been underpaid the last few years

I’m not aware that I have been until I investigate it myself. If I have been....

There is zero way from military.ie or defence.ie if anything is current as they don’t take down old versions.

I'm post 2013 so they're correct for me. To the best of my knowledge, pre or post 2013 is irrelevant with regards RDF pay and it's a single scale.

as far as I can remember those recruits who joined in 2013 were paid less

Apparently not every amendment will be added to the final published document.

not sure what you mean ?

My issue is less with the fact we are on a scale that is obviously not linked to the Haddington road agreement but that the RDFRA in any communication I have had (electronically and in person) with them state as gospel that we are on PDF pay less 10%. If RDF pay is out of sync with with current PDF pay; RDFRA should be looking to get this updated on R5 with the unfortunate 10%.

Again, I understand that RDF pay isn't linked to any of the current IR agreements but rather that it's directly advised via regulation. My issue is that there is a growing divergence beyond the 10% gap already known and that has either it not been identified or if it already has, there is no appetite by RDFRA to raise with the DoD and rectify.

A RDF corporal being paid less than 20% of PDF pay is pretty damning and there seem to have been a lot of heads deep in a lot of sand for a while.

I guarantee you, if this is true no one in the RDF or RDFRA has known about it before.

DFR R5 does require revision and has done for a number of years as it is not fit for purpose

[trellheim]

DFR R5 last showing amended in 2015//2016 but I cannot find a record of the Minister signing off , and even so this paragraph never changed.

[DeV]

Para 18 of S5 refers to RDF pay rates according to DFR R5

[trellheim]

For Officers Pay is S3 Para 18

[Poiuyt]

My issue is less with the fact we are on a scale that is obviously not linked to the Haddington road agreement but that the RDFRA in any communication I have had (electronically and in person) with them state as gospel that we are on PDF pay less 10%. If RDF pay is out of sync with with current PDF pay; RDFRA should be looking to get this updated on R5 with the unfortunate 10%.

If there is a pay discrepancy, then forget about it being rectified unless DoD or DF want to rectify it. They both know RDFRA is toothless and incompetent so there is no need for them to change anything. They know RDFRA is too busy fighting itself to fight for anything else.

If there is a pay discrepancy, then it is going to stay.

[Bravo20]

This should be easily enough to verify. Auldsod has compared his payslip to what was published for RDF on military.ie (see the link in his post on the previous page), his comparator is also legit. Dev you check your last payslip for 7 days against the schedule on military.ie and let me know if it agrees. Then we will know what is published on military.ie is correct (it doesn't matter what R5 says Trelheim, it is what is actually paid that counts).

Assuming the table on military.ie is correct then the RDF (at other rank level) is being paid between 11.59% and 18.78% below their PDF counterpart. I need to get the PDF comparator for officers to check their rate of pay.

Update for officers pay: Using the comparator for PRSI Class A. The RDF are paid 18% less than their PDF counterparts except for Lt Cols who are paid 10% less (using an annualised pay divided by 52 weeks)

[trellheim]

it doesn't matter what R5 says Trelheim

I disagree; it is the only legal basis for us being paid. Nothing else says we get paid or how much we get.

[Bravo20]

The proof is in the pudding (or in this case the paying). Does your payslip match R5 or the schedule on military.ie?

[trellheim]

R5 - a public document -


makes my point clearly - legally we HAVE to be paid same as the PDF - see para 75 below ( for enlisted, ) and 67 for Officers

67

The regimental rate of pay appropriate to his or her rank and service in rank, prescribed in subparagraph 16 (1) of Defence Force Regulations S.3 for an officer of the Permanent Defence Force shall apply to an officer attending at any of the
courses of training or instruction or authorised duties provided

75

(1) The rates of pay prescribed in
paragraph 18 of Defence Force Regulations S.3 in respect of members of the Army Reserve and
paragraph 104 of Defence Force Regulations S.3 in respect of members of the Naval Service Reserve,
for personnel of the Permanent Defence Force shall apply to
reservists of corresponding ranks, grades and classes attending at any of the courses of training or instruction or other authorised duties provided for in paragraph 40 of these Regulations or engaged on security duties provided for in paragraph 41.

Now try and tell me that paragraph was amended - hint - it hasnt been -

S.3 is a public document too lol and there's no separate table for RDF in it.

[trellheim]

Followup ( you'd never guess I've been looking into this )

S.1 ( which deals with how regulations are made)

Regulations made in exercise of the powers vested in the Minister by the Act shall be made and prescribed over the signature of the Minister and shall be entitled DEFENCE FORCE REGULATIONS.

Only the Minister's signature can change regulations.

[Bravo20]

You are jumping ahead of the process.

First we need to know how much are being paid. So please tell me if your last payslip for 7 days matches what is on the schedule on military.ie.

If it matches then you are being underpaid.

The next question is by how much (which is where you are going). If it is being compared to what was agreed during the pay negotiations we were not part of, then the it is between a 4% and 8% under paid if it is being compared to R5 then it is 14%-18% underpaid.

So please answer my question

[DeV]

The proof is in the pudding (or in this case the paying). Does your payslip match R5 or the schedule on military.ie?

This should be easily enough to verify. Auldsod has compared his payslip to what was published for RDF on military.ie (see the link in his post on the previous page), his comparator is also legit. Dev you check your last payslip for 7 days against the schedule on military.ie and let me know if it agrees. Then we will know what is published on military.ie is correct (it doesn't matter what R5 says Trelheim, it is what is actually paid that counts).

Assuming the table on military.ie is correct then the RDF (at other rank level) is being paid between 11.59% and 18.78% below their PDF counterpart. I need to get the PDF comparator for officers to check their rate of pay.

Update for officers pay: Using the comparator for PRSI Class A. The RDF are paid 18% less than their PDF counterparts except for Lt Cols who are paid 10% less (using an annualised pay divided by 52 weeks)

We are assuming that defence.ie and military.ie are correct and the most up to date

Followup ( you'd never guess I've been looking into this )

S.1 ( which deals with how regulations are made)



Only the Minister's signature can change regulations.

The Defence Acts (ie the Oireachtas) also state what regulations the Minister may make

[Bravo20]

We are assuming that defence.ie and military.ie are correct and the most up to date

Which is why I am asking both you and Trelheim to tell me whether or not your last payslip for 7 days matches what is up on military.ie as pay for reservists (using the link that Auldsod provided). How simple a request is that you just need to tell me yes or no and that table will then be validated.

[DeV]

My last payslip was mid this year and 7 days

It matches what it says is the the current RDF pay for my rank on military.ie. So that was the rate of RDF pay mid this year. Not necessarily current now.

The PDF rates of pay on military.ie and Defence.ie match each other for PDF of my rank. But those rates took effect on 1 Oct 18, so they weren’t the PDF rates of pay when I completed my 7 days. The PDF rate of pay was obviously lower than it was when I completed my FTT.

I got 85% mid 2018 of what a PDF person of equal rank got from 1 Oct.

I have no way of checking the rate of PDF pay at the time I completed my FTT.





Something strange is that the PDF pay post 2013 for my rank is higher than the pre 2013.

[Bravo20]

Well LRA2 meant a 1% pay increase from October so I suspect that all the pay increases that the PDF have been receiving have not been applied to the RDF. The next stages are quite simple, RDFRA should get the up to date payscales relating to the RDF do a 5 minute comparison and Bobs your uncle you have something tangible to raise with C&A.

[DeV]

Yes but was there other pay rises between mid year and 1 Oct ?

[trellheim]

The Defence Acts (ie the Oireachtas) also state what regulations the Minister may make

In fact the Act is the basis, S1 merely clarifies how regulations, Army Orders, Admin Instructions, and GROs are made.

If we are talking about Pay ( and we are ) this is the key section of the Act , Sec 97

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1.../en/html#sec97

97.—(1) The Minister may make regulations in relation to the following matters—

(a) the rates and scales of pay, allowances and gratuities of members of the Defence Forces,

(b) the grants which may be made to members and units of the Defence Forces,

(c) the conditions applicable to the issue of such pay, allowances, gratuities and grants.

(2) (a) The Minister may, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, make regulations in relation to the following matters—

(i) the forfeitures and deductions to which the pay, allowances and gratuities of and grants to members of the Defence Forces may be subjected,

(ii) the deductions to which grants to units of the Defence Forces may be subjected,

(iii) the disposition of such forfeitures and deductions,

(iv) the manner in which and the procedure whereby such forfeitures and deductions or any other deductions authorised by this Act are to be made, and such forfeitures and deductions may be made and disposed of accordingly.

(b) Regulations made under this subsection shall not prescribe—

(i) forfeiture of pay except in respect of—

(I) absence on desertion or without leave,

(II) custody, imprisonment or detention,

(III) absence from duty on account of a disease or disability arising out of the commission of any offence,

(IV) unclaimed amounts;

(ii) deductions from pay except in respect of—

(I) articles or services provided,

(II) marriage allotment,

(III) fines, penalties, damages, compensation or costs awarded,

(IV) public or service property lost, deficient, damaged or destroyed,

(V) public or service debt or disallowance,

(VI) unauthorised expenditure or commitment.

(c) The total deduction to be made under regulations made under this subsection from the pay of a man, except a man who is being transferred to the Reserve Defence Force or discharged from the Defence Forces, shall not in any week exceed such sum as would cause him to receive less than one-third of his pay for that week.

(d) Every regulation made under this subsection shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made and, if a resolution annulling the regulation is passed by either such House within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which that House has sat after the regulation has been laid before it, such regulation shall be annulled accordingly but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done under such regulation.

(3) Any forfeiture or deduction made under subsection (2) of this section may be remitted by the Minister in whole or in part.

(4) References to pay, allowances, gratuities or grants in this Chapter shall be construed as references to pay, allowances, gratuities or grants payable under regulations made under subsection (1) of this section.

( I have checked this section against the revised text from the 2017 restatement, and it is still correct - i.e it's not been amended. )

[trellheim]

Read that section very carefully - and wonder why I was discussing the stuff I was talking about up-thread.

You should also note that this applies to the PDF as well


Here's a hint : This is the Oireachtas Library digital copy of a 2008 amendment to S.3 http://opac.oireachtas.ie/Data/Libra...2/DL045213.pdf

It changes stuff with regard to forfeitures of pay. I picked it not because of the source material but as an example of my point Note carefully

a) Why is this document available from this search facility
b) Why is page 3 important
c) 2008 is important as an example - because it is before LRA2 or LRA1 . Why is that important ?

You can get to these documents by going to http://opac.oireachtas.ie/liberty/libraryHome.do and typing in defence force regulations : amendments as a search string.

[Auldsod]

RDFRA are looking into this I believe. Whether they have the influence to get anything done; who knows. It's something that may need legislation in the Dáil and unfortunately in the grand scheme of things, the RDF is never going to be a priority.

It's small money really but it's the little things that chip away with the moral of an organisation. People don't mind volunteering their time and putting in hard graft but it's annoyances like the above, getting paid late and hassle with kit issue that gets people down (in my opinion anyway!).

[DeV]

Can you take a redress against a civil servant (as they control pay rates)?

I know you can go to ODF about a civil servant (but you must have redressed it first)