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Ireland has lowest government expenditure on defence to GDP in EU: Eurostat

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  • #16
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I disagree. The current situation permits spending increases without much scrutiny in government or with the public.
    The state just found €3bn to deal with the crisis, accepting that our national deficit will suffer. However we are rapidly heading towards a worldwide recession, and the pandemic has the potential to kill many, including politicians, which could completely change government priorities.
    And that spending increase is going to go into Health and Social Welfare when the unemployment starts going up again, not Defence, its a simply reality. As to the current "found money" what they've basically done is front load from the fiscal space (which yeah doesn't exist anymore), even assuming a magical solution was found and things returned to normal it would mean the 11 billion would be down to 8 billion of space. Instead as we agree it's a global recession, which means resources are going to be even more limited and where they go more contested, any Government isn't going to be selling investing in major Capital projects in Defence when arguing over how many ICU beds are in the system, god forbid we get to the Italian stage of Doctors triaging and abandoning patients.

    Maybe if the DF is doing ATCP for a year or so, the pay situation might get looked at, but suggesting major upgrades/investment in areas like Cyber or Undersea data cables or Air surveillance...Nope.

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    • #17
      Questions are being asked as to why the spare hospital capacity the defence forces had was allowed to disappear. Wouldn't it be great if we still had the empty hospitals in Cork and the Curragh? Why was the modular mobile field hospital not replaced (at a cost of €10m) when the old one was left overseas, having served its purpose and suffered wear and tear from local conditions.
      What about the army medical corps, once able to take up the slack in times of emergency, now a token operation.
      All systematically wound down by the DoD, to save money that didnt need to be saved.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • #18
        Can the state afford to spend 2% on GNI on defence? Yes
        Will people find as ever excuses why not to do it? Yes

        The amount of money wasted by the state is criminal, and not all the blame is with the government but also with the citizens. Just look at the headlines over the past year on people waiting on trollies, no that the most serious pandemic has hit suddenly when you would expect more people in hospital the numbers have dramatically dropped. Why? Because those who are abusing the system suddenly realise that the same bruise does not need to be treated at A&E.

        Even if income tax is relatively high the overall tax take is low, and the state suffers the typical problems of low tax economies, such as highly inflated property prices. And despite that some see defence as money wasted if properly directed if can help to diversify an economy. The spin off can be in high tech and engineering all of which we should be developing as not to become stuck as a service economy.

        As for cyber defence this should be handled at EU level as no one country will have the required resource and all are threatened.

        No that Putin has secured his wish to be President for Life (am sure he will also be working on how to secure his legacy after he dies) we will see a more assertive and aggressive Ivan. Anytime the see a weakness they will try and exploit, they see the Covid-19 as something that is a challenge to the West so a perfect time for them to try and stretch the western defences. Hence why almost daily long range flights that we are seeing.

        Will any of this change our politicians view of defence? No. The only way that will happen is once the EU starts to pile on the pressure to do something and once we get the bill from the RAF once BoJo realises we have been getting cover for free!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
          Questions are being asked as to why the spare hospital capacity the defence forces had was allowed to disappear. Wouldn't it be great if we still had the empty hospitals in Cork and the Curragh? Why was the modular mobile field hospital not replaced (at a cost of €10m) when the old one was left overseas, having served its purpose and suffered wear and tear from local conditions.
          What about the army medical corps, once able to take up the slack in times of emergency, now a token operation.
          All systematically wound down by the DoD, to save money that didnt need to be saved.
          To top it all off, both the "Minister for Defence" and the Juniour Minister where out of the country while all of this was being organised. What other nation in the world would allow that to happen?
          It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
          It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
          It was a new age...It was the end of history.
          It was the year everything changed.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
            That's Trump being Trump, and don't change my point. We have a global recession without question and a health service that's going to swallow every cent it can for at least the next year. Forget extra spending in the DF it's not there and won't be there.
            Read RACO's submission on Security and related Defence matters. The Virus is here via CHINA and is a Demonstration of the vulnerability of all nations to deliberate or accidental pandemics. As the leading NBC trained professionals , aided by Civil Defence, we should be the Nation's EW Agency in such related matters. It could be the reason the PDF has suddenly got an order passed to purchase 124 SCANIA's and the GARDA new Patrol Vehicles. The PDF is our only guarantee of Sovereignty and unquestioning response. The underspend over the last 2 decades is leaving us with a Defence Forces that itself needs assistance and a new dedicated M.O.D.
            Last edited by ancientmariner; 14 March 2020, 10:35.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
              Read RACO's submission on Security and related Defence matters. The Virus is here via CHINA and is a Demonstration of the vulnerability of all nations to deliberate or accidental pandemics. As the leading NBC trained professionals , aided by Civil Defence, we should be the Nation's EW Agency in such related matters. It could be the reason the PDF has suddenly got an order passed to purchase 124 SCANIA's and the GARDA new Patrol Vehicles. The PDF is our only guarantee of Sovereignty and unquestioning response. The underspend over the last 2 decades is leaving us with a Defence Forces that itself needs assistance and a new dedicated M.O.D.
              And control of its own budget

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                but suggesting major upgrades/investment in areas like Cyber or Undersea data cables or Air surveillance...Nope.
                In the very least Cyber must be addressed or the whole IT sector will become vapourware as the massive US corporate investment into Ireland that built that sector and the tens of thousands of jobs within it upsticks elsewhere. That is the consequence.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                  In the very least Cyber must be addressed or the whole IT sector will become vapourware as the massive US corporate investment into Ireland that built that sector and the tens of thousands of jobs within it upsticks elsewhere. That is the consequence.
                  The Cyber sector could be one where Ireland takes a leading role in the EU. Given the amount of expertise in country and it would be an area where the left would have little to attack. And it should be an EU wide defence as one country alone, at least one of our size would have difficulty on its own.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                    The Cyber sector could be one where Ireland takes a leading role in the EU. Given the amount of expertise in country and it would be an area where the left would have little to attack. And it should be an EU wide defence as one country alone, at least one of our size would have difficulty on its own.
                    Given the level of expertise required, they will have the opportunity for much higher-paid jobs in the private sector, which might be one barrier to recruitment
                    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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                    • #25
                      But yet Ireland isn’t participating in the EDA Cyber type projects

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                        The Cyber sector could be one where Ireland takes a leading role in the EU. Given the amount of expertise in country and it would be an area where the left would have little to attack. And it should be an EU wide defence as one country alone, at least one of our size would have difficulty on its own.
                        The number of suitable people left in the DF could be counted on one hand ... even after you forget to leave go of a grenade and lose half of it

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DeV View Post
                          But yet Ireland isn’t participating in the EDA Cyber type projects
                          We would have been more surprised if we were involved.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
                            The number of suitable people left in the DF could be counted on one hand ... even after you forget to leave go of a grenade and lose half of it
                            National Security of which Cyber Security is a subset, is not solely about structured military forces like the DF or traditional policing entities like the Garda who often are not the ideal organisational governance models to deal with the process and product of data capture and analysis, policy and protection, in a democracy. Your NCSC already exists as a state agency nominally under your Comms Ministry and is separate to the DF though working alongside them and other agencies of state and significant critical financial and infrastructural entities of your civil society.

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