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  1. #1
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    History Lesson - Protection of Reservists employment rights existed back in 1941

    Many of you may not be aware that a law was passed in 1941 protecting Reservists jobs at call-up with the onset of what we laughably called the Emergency . It was revoked in 1954 with the passing of the 1954 Defence Act which is the current bedrock act. See the excerpt below http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1...d/en/html#sec8

    a) either—

    (i) a person who is a Reserve officer has been before, or is after, the passing of this Act called out on permanent service, or

    (ii) a person has been before, or is after, the passing of this Act appointed to temporary commissioned rank, and

    (b) such person (in this sub-section referred to as the former employee) was, at the time he was so called out on permanent service or appointed to temporary commissioned rank (as the case may be), employed by another person (in this sub-section referred to as the former employer) who is neither a Minister of State nor a statutory body responsible to a Minister of State,

    the following provisions shall have effect, that is to say:—

    (c) it shall be the duty of the former employer to reinstate the former employee at the termination of his military service in an occupation and under conditions not less favourable to him than those which would have been applicable if he had not been so called out on permanent service or appointed to temporary commissioned rank;

    (d) if the former employer fails to so reinstate the former employee, the former employer shall be guilty of an offence under this sub-section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds;

    (e) if the former employer is found guilty of such offence, the court by which he is so found guilty may also order him to pay to the former employee such amount (not exceeding six times the sum which would, if he had not so been called out on permanent service or had not been appointed to temporary commissioned rank (as the case may be) and had been in the employment of the former employer at the termination of his military service, have been the monthly remuneration payable to him by the former employer at the time of such termination) as the court thinks fit;
    cough just put it back on the books for heavens sake cough
    Last edited by trellheim; 15th March 2020 at 23:12.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  3. #2
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    Many of you may not be aware that a law was passed in 1941 protecting Reservists jobs at call-up with the onset of what we laughably called the Emergency . It was revoked in 1954 with the passing of the 1954 Defence Act which is the current bedrock act. See the excerpt below http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1...d/en/html#sec8



    cough just put it back on the books for heavens sake cough

    That's great.... what about enlisted personnel???
    Also civilian salary has to come into the equation - bills still need to be paid at home while the reservist is deployed
    Last edited by Truck Driver; 16th March 2020 at 01:35.
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  4. #3
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    Commissioned male Officers only .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

  5. #4
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    That's great.... what about enlisted personnel???
    Also civilian salary has to come into the equation - bills still need to be paid at home while the reservist is deployed
    Without such legislation you could see drops of pay of 50%, 60%, 70% for certain personnel. Quite a few reservists who have civilian jobs where they are far more senior relative to their military rank.

    I'm not sure if it's in legislation or in regulation but the UK military matches pay up to GBP 400 a day or GBP 146,000 per year

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  7. #5
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    We signed up for this. And now is not the time to be asking for extra pay. Discharge is an option if people feel that they cant commit now should they be called up. It's in the print all the time.

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  9. #6
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    We signed up for this. And now is not the time to be asking for extra pay. Discharge is an option if people feel that they cant commit now should they be called up. It's in the print all the time.
    Fair point. You're dead right being honest.

    If the call does go out - commit and hope to be looked after later (maybe).

  10. #7
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    We signed up for this. And now is not the time to be asking for extra pay. Discharge is an option if people feel that they cant commit now should they be called up. It's in the print all the time.
    Spare the flag waving speech. I'm around the block more than long enough
    (as those here who know me will testify).

    I'm well aware of my obligations. If the envelope with the harp pops through my letterbox, I'll be there.

    Otherwise, I can only do what I can do within the bounds of my civilian employment (and more importantly, my family)

    This is a completely new thing with regard to potential mobilisation of reservists - and their employers.
    Which is why legislation definitely needs to be looked at...
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  12. #8
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Well I’d say there is a good few RDF people who have now found themselves unemployed giving that the unemployed numbers not far off doubled since Thursday

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  14. #9
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    No order paper for the Dail on thursday yet.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  16. #10
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    cough just put it back on the books for heavens sake cough

    Cough... how to get stoned to death.... don't ven think about sneezing..


    (d) if the former employer fails to so reinstate the former employee, the former employer shall be guilty of an offence under this sub-section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds
    ;

    I would suggest the attitude being.. here's your 50 quid now ..fcuk off

    But seriously I spoke with my line manager last week and suggested that the hospital I work in should be inviting in the local unit and offering them train the trainer in donning PPE specific to the current situation as its only a matter of time before we have boots on the ground in some capacity.

    I have 60 staff, half of these could be wiped out in one day if the current situation escalates and gets into the hospital system. A simple thing like meeting people and enforcing a visiting ban becomes impossible without having people on the ground.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 16th March 2020 at 22:51.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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  18. #11
    C/S koppiteal's Avatar
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    My unit had to send all our employers details in the other night to coy hq.

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  20. #12
    C/S CTU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Cough... how to get stoned to death.... don't ven think about sneezing..


    ;

    I would suggest the attitude being.. here's your 50 quid now ..fcuk off
    Or one employer to test the resonable defence clause in the Legislation.

    (f) if the former employer is charged with an offence under this sub-section in relation to the former employee, it shall be a good defence to such charge if the former employer proves—

    (i) that the former employee did not before the expiration of one month after the termination of his military service, apply to the former employer for reinstatement, or

    (ii) that having been offered reinstatement by the former employer, the former employee failed, without reasonable excuse to present himself for employment at the time and place notified by the former employer, or

    (iii) that by reason of a change of circumstances (other than the engagement of some other person to replace the former employee)—

    (I) it was not reasonably practicable to reinstate the former employee, or

    (II) the reinstatement of the former employee in an occupation and under conditions not less favourable to him than those which would have been applicable to him had he not been so called out on permanent service or appointed to temporary commissioned rank was impracticable and the former employer has offered to reinstate him in the most favourable occupation and under the most favourable conditions reasonably practicable;
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed!
    I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

  21. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    Commissioned male Officers only .
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1.../en/html#sec57

    Enlisted men were covered by a separate act the previous year.

  22. #14
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    I apologize for making this sound commissioned vs enlisted that was not the intention, merely to show this types of laws had been on the books and were more of less there as a template if required
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  24. #15
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    As this evening's news has shown, when the Govt wants cooperation, it can throw money at the problem when it suits them. The GPs will get 30 quid to answer each C-19 phonecall and 75 if they actually deal with a C-19 affected person. Clearly, the GPs representatives have used the occasion to twist the arm of the Govt to make sure their mates get paid up front. Reservists haven't got a chance....

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  26. #16
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    Remind m, what is the Taoiseach's profession again?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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    It annoys me that so many people will be expected to step up, work extra for free and get a pat on the back for taking the risks yet GPs' union is creeping in the backdoor and sticking in the invoice ahead of time...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    It annoys me that so many people will be expected to step up, work extra for free and get a pat on the back for taking the risks yet GPs' union is creeping in the backdoor and sticking in the invoice ahead of time...
    Never underestimate the self-interest of the medical profession (I worked with them for too long!).

    If you want to see the extreme example, you need look no further than the USA. (But I digress...)
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  31. #19
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    As this evening's news has shown, when the Govt wants cooperation, it can throw money at the problem when it suits them. The GPs will get 30 quid to answer each C-19 phonecall and 75 if they actually deal with a C-19 affected person. Clearly, the GPs representatives have used the occasion to twist the arm of the Govt to make sure their mates get paid up front. Reservists haven't got a chance....
    The government will have to throw money at this problem and unfortunately may have to do so as to ensure the co-operation of certain actors in this crisis.

    Just because the government will be throwing vast sums at this crisis, it doesn't mean that they have been holding back on us and serious resources were always there.

    Any economic stimulus or temporary extreme additional funding for health will have a long term impact. There will be serious pain from the economic contraction and increased borrowing that will be felt for many years to come like after 2008. The bogieman this time will just be a virus and not the banks, developers, etc.

    I've heard a lot of nonsense over the last 24 hours, like 'we need to take the apple money'.

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  33. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    The government will have to throw money at this problem and unfortunately may have to do so as to ensure the co-operation of certain actors in this crisis.

    Just because the government will be throwing vast sums at this crisis, it doesn't mean that they have been holding back on us and serious resources were always there.

    Any economic stimulus or temporary extreme additional funding for health will have a long term impact. There will be serious pain from the economic contraction and increased borrowing that will be felt for many years to come like after 2008. The bogieman this time will just be a virus and not the banks, developers, etc.

    I've heard a lot of nonsense over the last 24 hours, like 'we need to take the apple money'.
    I was disappointed to hear a National address littered with Churchillian phraseology and references to an American comic book character, and that more needed equipment was on it's way. It has to mean, that we are not ready, despite knowing the Virus was on it's way since January or even earlier. Certain elements, will make financial gains and gorge on the carrots and the rest will get plenty of the stick. They talked about curing housing, homelessness, flooding with snail like outcomes, let's hope this isn't another talked about solution

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  35. #21
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Lads please discuss the topic. Covid should be in its own thread, thanks
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  36. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    As this evening's news has shown, when the Govt wants cooperation, it can throw money at the problem when it suits them. The GPs will get 30 quid to answer each C-19 phonecall and 75 if they actually deal with a C-19 affected person. Clearly, the GPs representatives have used the occasion to twist the arm of the Govt to make sure their mates get paid up front. Reservists haven't got a chance....
    The GPs are behaving like war time spives

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  38. #23
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    I dont think that we are approaching this correctly at all with the attitude towards GPs and the medical profession.

    There's a barrel of money intended to ensure we can fight off COVID 19 and jealousy because GPs are better organised than the RDF at dealing with Govt with a heavier hand -unionised etc is divisive.

    We shouldnt be making this a divisive issue, the Depts work with divide and conquer approaches to everything... Many GPs are on the front line in their communities, we all know that GP practices were already overrun and swamped before COVID happened, theres a massive lack of GPs nationwide to begin with and dont forget that many of those practices, especially in rural ireland, employ many people, they have zero footfall now so need some sort of business model to keep people employed.

    The remote triage fee for Covid-19 for eligible medical card patients, and private patients, has been set at €34. The fee for “non-Covid-19” remote consultations for GMS and other eligible medical card patients has been agreed at €25. 34 euro is also a deterrent from some of the crap calls that GPs have had to put up with since this started "Eh, just calling to say Ive a cold and to see does this mean I cant go on me mates stag" etc. Meanwhile phone lines are jammed with actual patients etc who need help. Medical cards and private insurance holders will get remunerated too AFAIK.

    The problem here is that - Yes we signed up to this and yes we should obligate that - but, to the best of our ability - each to their OWN ability.

    My company pays the mortgage, i'm also currently healthy in full time employment, the Dept wont pay my mortgage and to be honest, if I contract COVID19 whilst out there i'm pretty sure that I wont have the same illness benefits that my company will provide, will my own healthcare even cover it?

    Its disingenuous to say - bo!!ix to that, you signed up , out you go. We have been asking for years for empty suits like Keogh and his ilk and the gombeens running the department to help us out with employment protection and proper healthcare provision for injuries attained during full time training or whilst carrying out a duty. Other EU states do it for their reservists, why not ours?

    As far as Im concerned, Ill make my own decision thank you, Ill probably be a muppet and go as my company recognises military service to a small degree, but I also believe that the Dept owes current reservists and the legacy of hundreds of thousands that have gone before them, a recognition of what they offer with a simple couple of paragraphs in the legislature protecting their livelihoods and families and equal rights to our hard pressed PDF counterparts regarding healthcare access etc. I wouldnt look down on anyone who stays at home and protects themselves and their families, if there were employment protection etc, id be the first to drive them out of their homes at the end of a cattle prod.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  40. #24
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Update. The above act existed in 1941. The Defence Act 1954 removed it. Here was their reasoning ( learn something new every day, this took a LOT of deep reading to find )


    ( Second Stage Debate on the 1954 Act )

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates...1952-01-30/65/

    The present Bill contains those provisions of the existing Acts which are considered suitable for permanent legislation, but amendments have been made as necessary to effect improvements. The Bill also includes a considerable number of new provisions giving additional powers for defence purposes and affording further safeguards for members of the Defence Forces. Certain of the provisions enacted during the emergency have been omitted, the intention being to reserve them for emergency legislation if the necessity for such legislation should arise at any time. The principal omissions are the provisions in relation to the precedence of military traffic on transport undertakings during an emergency; the adaptation of the plant of such undertakings to enable military requirements to be met, and the provisions regarding the restoration of civilian employment at the end of an emergency of members of the Reserve called out on permanent service and personnel commissioned or enlisted for the duration of the emergency.
    Can't think of a better time to be honest. If any of you are reading this have any power to do so, why not show this to people who can put legislation forward.
    Last edited by trellheim; 25th March 2020 at 11:28.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  42. #25
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    I have sent this to my company Commander and asked that its put forward.

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